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04/16/1997 - 9:00 AM (2) : j, C , ~ ., . . .' . . , , ' ,.' , . ' , . . . . . . , . ':"i;, ., , L' <.:' "', , ',.:, ..... .. .. ,", " ~ . ' -, .j .. , . ':(, . , ' . 0 '0 . 1'.' 0 .1::1: . : '. .' ~, " : ' >, ,', . . 0 ') . . 0 . 0 . , '.,1 .l., . ," , . 0 I 0 . . .:~ ' '. . ", . I ' ,I, , . ., ,.!/ ,'l : ..' 'j, ~~ ..' e ~',' .', ., " , . , ',' . , .' ., , . .. . 0 I 0 :;",'.., ...... .......,..'.....'... .'HEARING.... , C " ~:' , ' . ,!.,'., . '. .', ' , . .;;~/:;o"........: ..~.........:. . "'0" 'FFICER' I,':" ". ..... " :' . . .~! ., " . , l' ";'.' ,c .' '., c . ::.: ,.' , '.' . . :~, :'; .' ...' . \. . . . c .' \";' ........,.. ....'.APPEALS . 1< ~ ~ ~ . t.. . . ' i".J .., ' I." :. <. ~', ~ ... . J.....c. .' , \ " o , \;." '. " .' . . ~ ~' 0 00 . . . ,I , >' ' , \ 'j , t ' " Date · · . f q' 'i q:OOCb4. ' . · (Su\~s" Mil..... I~i~' fA\ace) , '. o , , ., ' , , .. . ~ I ' , . :.':' ,:. " "., . " " /!: ,'" , . .' ~ ' . '. . \;: ,.'. .. : 'I r,.' . ,. , ~ . , ,.0 . f . . ' '1 . /L.(0fo ". ~::~~~;~ ~~ ' " ... L' " "....... . i 1~. :. '., .' ", ~ .' ,;\1 ':' . d'~' ' " ., ~.:. . . ~. ii' .' ........ . .". ~1 ~,' . " ., ' , , ::'.:;,.l,>.:. ,~.'~>.:I~l . ,~:I.,. . ~ . .. : . [ . u' I . . " .., "J+ { .". ., , ' " , I,' . .', Hearing Officer Wednesday, April 16t 1997 9:00 a.m. ,:r Generosa T. Santos and Rose W. Milan (White Palace) Petitioners " vs. ,City of ,Clearwater Resp~ndent , ,\ Petitioners were' appealing the Planning and'Zoning Board's decision. , . ' Th~ P&Z had denied the Petitioner's' conditional use app,lication. (re 14-30 Palmetto St. - CU 97-07)' ' A court reporter attended this meeting. The Final Order, (11 pages) & transcrlpt (50 pages) is on paper (until microfilmed) in the . .' Hearing Officer minutes notebook. " 0',' The Hearing Officer upheld the Board's dedsion. .. , . " . ,'"",':,;{ ,'~ .' ~. .. ,., ,.., . ~,~ .. I ~ " ,I., , , ;, . . l< , . ' , mho04a97; 1 04/16/97 " , , . .. o (' - "" , ., STATE OF FLORIDA DIVISION OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS '~ECJ!1J[VE D ,lilt\' rJ 9 1997 GENEROSA T. SANTOS and ROSE W. MILAM (WHITE PALACE), Petitioners, ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ~ITV 'KERK OEPT. VB. CASE NO. 97-1108 CITY OF CLEARWATER, Respondent. I \" FINAL ORDER A hearing was held in this case on April 16, 1997, in Clearwater, Florida, before Arnold H. Pollock, an Administrative c:; Law' Judge with the Division of Administrative Hearings. APPEARANCES 0,") , ,. ~;. . . < . For Petitioner: Oscar D. Santos Qualified Representative 1430 Palmetto Street Clearwater, 'Florida 34615 For Respondent: Leslie K. Dougall-Sides, Esquire City of Clearwater Post Office Box 4748 Clearwater, Florida 34618-4748 STATEMENT OF THE ISSUE The issue for consideration in this case is whether .Petitioners should be granted approval by the City of Clearwate~ of their request for expansion of a six-bed group home facility, located at 1430 Palmetto Street in Clearwater, to eight beds. "i":' ..... _L"::. ~_,.:..~'..~:r",,~,:~ :.~:. ,..~'"';,'''''~., ..f.....::...... .. ;':...: .~\~ '.' ,,> ~. .',::','. . . . ~ ~ " '" PRELIMINARY MATTERS o On" December 15, 1996, Petitioner, Generosa T. Santos, applied to the City of Clearwater for a conditional use permit to expand a Level I group care facility at her property located at 1430 Palmetto Street in Clearwater to eight beds. The request was heard by the city's Planning and Zoning Board on February 4, 1997, and was denied. petitioners appealed from that action and this hearing ensued. At the hearing, Petitioner presented the testimony of Oscar D. Santos, husband of Generosa T. Santos, and introduced Petitioner's Exhibit One. Respondent, City of Clearwater presented the testimony of Sandra E. Glatthorn, a planning administrator for the City, and requested that the undersigned officially recognize sections 35.11, 36.033, 40.101-.106, 41.021- .053 and 41.201, Clearwater City Code. An electronic transcription of that portion of the Planning and Zoning Board meeting pertinent to this appeal was also presented and reviewed. , :" i 2 Public comment from Thelma D. Pope and Donald C. Pope was also heard. A transcript of the proceedings was furnished. Subsequent to the receipt thereof by the undersigned, counsel for the City submitted Proposed Findings of Fact which were considered in the preparation of this Final Order. FINDINGS OF FACT 1. Petitioners, Generosa T. Santos and Rose W. Milam, .~ operate the White Palace, an assisted living facility, in a residence owned by Petitioner Milam, located at 1430 Palmetto F) C) J ..........,-...-.IOI.ut~...t ~ -< .,"" : Street in Clearwater. The facility is currently licensed for six residents and has been in operation for several years. 2. The property in question is a single family residence 'located in an area zoned RS 8, (residential urban), on the north, east and west, and recreational/open space on the south. In actuality, all parcels, including the property in question, except for the golf course on the south, are occupied by single family residences. 3. On December 15, 1996, Ms. Santos applied to the City1s Planning and Zoning Board for a conditional use permit to expand the existing six bed Level I Group Care Facility to a maximum capacity of eight residents. The Petitioners' request was considered by the Board at its public meeting held on February 4, "1997. Prior to that time, the Petitioners' application was reviewed by Sandra E. Glatthorn, a planning administrator for the City who determined that the property, a single family residence, has been utilized since 1983 as an assisted living facility for six adults. In 1985, the facility was permitted for eight residents, but for two years thereafter, the facility did not" operate as such and that permit lapsed. In March. 1994, Ms. Santos requested zoning approval for six clients} which was approved. 4. After her review of the application in issue, Ms. Glatthorn prepared a staff report which supported the request. This report was based on the matters submitted with the application. Her review indicated that the intended use for which the application was submitted appeared to be compatible with the neighborhood and the zoning requirements, but at the ...; ~. 3 . ~ /~ meeting of the Board held on February 4, 1997, several neighbors came forward to present evidence that the proposed use, based on demonstrated conditions, was not compatible with but had a negative impact on surrounding properties. 5. An RS B zoning category is generally limited to single family residences or to family care facilities for up to six clients. Once the projected client population exceeds six residents, the category becomes Level I Group Care. Clients in either case can be elderly, physically or mentally handicapped, or non-dangerously mentally ill. Criminal or dangerous clients are not allowed within either category. Distance requirements between the residence in issue and surrounding properties are not in issue here. ~...... \~) 6. On reconsideration of this application, after the Board meeting, the planning staff now recommends denial. At the Board meeting, several neighbors expressed their opposition to the approval of the requested permit. They cited what they considered to be incidents of a nature inconsistent with the quiet enjoyment of their property, including aberrant and disconcerting behavior by residents of the existing facility ',J which made them uncomfortable and precluded them from a worry- free occupancy of their property. Residents of the facility were seen to wander the neighborhood, to verbally abuse neighbors and shout out obscenities, to seek access to neighboring properties and to occasion a police response to complaints by neighbors. 7. Mr. Santos opined that the neighborhood opposition to the increase in the number of beds is based on an opinion held that Petitioners are not capable of running the facility and on 4 , , , ~ ~ the petitioners as a family. He rejects the contention by some neighbors t~at his children, who occupy the house along with their parents and the clients, are not being brought up in a good environment. This is not in iSBue. The decision to operate the home as an assisted living concept was not a spur of the moment decision by the Petitioners. They researched the possibility thoroughly before deciding to operate it. /~~ <.J o 8. Mr. Santos asserts that the neighbors claim the residents at the facility are abandoned, but this is not so. The residents have families who visit them and who take the residents for off-facility visits. In addition, he claims, the residents are not violent. Before admission to the facility, potential residents are screened to insure they are not violent or dangerous. He contends he would not expose his family, which lives in the facility, to dangerous residents. 9. The staff of the facility is made up of members of the Santos family. Any clients who created trouble at the facility have been removed from it at Mr. Santos' instigation. Though residents are not restricted to the facility grounds, if there is a problem with a resident, that resident is removed from the home ,in an effort to 'satisfy the neighbors. Though Mr. Santos -believes he has a good relationship with most of the neighbors, he cannot seem to get through to the Popes. Ms. Santos and Ms. Milam are willing to work with the neighbors to alleviate their anxieties regarding the facility and, if that is what it takes to do so, will agree to limit the occupancy of,the facility only to elderly clients. . . . 5 ~ 10. Only Mr. and Mrs. Pope appeared at the instant hearing. Both expressed substantial objection to the expansion of the facility. Their concerns are based on the fact that residents of the facility have come to their home next door and banged on the door seeking entrance; have screamed obscenities at them while they were in their back yard; and on the report that the owners will move out if the increase in resident authorization is approved and bring in other people to care for the residents. 11. Neither Mr. nor Mrs. Pope have ever been in the facility. It appears, also, that on only one occasion did residents come to their home to seek entry. Mr. Pope admits to being quick to anger and to being prejudiced against Orientals. He served in the South Pacific during World War II. Mr. And Mrs. , .....---..\ ........J Santos are Orientals. Neither the Popes nor their neighbors who appeared at the Board's February 4 meeting want the facility in their residential community. Most of them have spent their entire lives working towards providing a comfortable and secure home for their retirement and they feel that the insertion of a group home, with the attendant additional activity, would be incompatible with the quiet enjoyment of their property and would adversely affect their property values, which make" up a large portion of their financial worth. 12. On the other hand, representatives of Directions For Mental Health, Inc., an agency devoted to the placement of disabled adults, primarily the mentally ill, consider the White .--.J Palace a much needed resource. They recommend the bed increase sought be granted. 6 (', CONCLUSIONS OF LAW ?.. + 13. The Division of Administrative Hearings has jurisdiction over the parties and the subject matter in this case. Section 120.57(1), Florida statutes. 14. A level I Group Care facility is, according to Section' 35 . 1:1,' Clearwater Code of Ordinances: 7 a dwelling unit licensed to serve clients of the state Department of Health and Rehabilitative Services (now Department of Children and Families) and providing a living environment for seven to fourteen related or unrelated residents who operate as the functional equivalent of a family, including such supervision and care by supportive staff as may be necessary to meet the (') \. physical,.emotional and social needs of the residents. As used in this definition, flresidentll means the same as defined by Florida Statutes, s. 419.001, as created by Chapter 89-372, Laws .of Florida, and includes an aged person, a physically disabled or handicapped person, a developmentally d{sabled person, a non- dangerous mentally ill person, or a child, all as defined by law. 15. Petitioners bear the burden to show that the decision of the Board cannot be sustained by the evidence before the Board and the Administrative ~aw Judge, or that the decision of the Board departs from the essential requirements of the law. Clearwater Code of Ordinances, Section 36.065(6) (b). ~6. The First District Court of Appeals has determined that it is not the function of an appellate administrative body to re- ,"'. weigh the evidence submitted to the decision-making body below. \..J orNeill v. Pallot, 257 So.2d 59 (Fla. let DCA 1972). In these ,+<J "' .'"~. proceedings, the Division of Administrative Hearings reviews the Board's decision in an appellate capacity but also takes evidence de novo. See Sec. 36.036(3), Clearwater Code of Ordinances. 17. Section 41.052, Clearwater Code of Ordinances, provides the general standards for conditional use permits, and at subsection (7) provides: The use shall be consistent with the community character of the properties surrounding the use. The criteria in this subsection shall be utilized to determine whether the use satisfies this standard: (a) Whether the use is compatible with the surrounding natural" environment; ....~\ ".J (b) Whether The use will have a substantial detrimental effect on the property values of the properties surrounding the conditional use; (c) Whether the use will be compatible with the surrounding uses as measured by building setbacks, open space, hours of operation, building and site appearance, architectural design and other factors which may be determined appropriate to assess the compatibility of uses: (d) Whether the traffic generated by the use is of a type or volume similar to traffic generated by.the surrounding uses. 18. In addition, Section 41.053(13), relating to supplementarY standards of the City permits Level 1 facilities in single-family districts subject to all of the following: (a) The use shall comply with all terms contained in section 41.302. ."-~) (b) Accessory uses shall be limited to those normal and incidental to residential dwelling units. (c) The use shall be reasonably compatible " with the surrounding neighborhood as measured 8 I . .... .' , . , .. +. . '. . ..... ~ ". .. '." ~ . -. . (~ , . ~ ~ . "' by building size, location and state of repair. (d) The site shall be"able to accommodate required parking, ancillary service and outdoor activity areas appropriate to the use and in manner which is compatible with the surrounding properties. (e) Proper supervision shall be provided to ensure neighborhood compatibility. (f) If located within a single family residential 8 district, the use shall be located on property having conforming frontage on a minor or major arterial street. 9 (g) The use shall comply with all of the general standards contained in section 41.052. 19. The evidence presented to the Board by the petitioner appears to meet most of the criteria in both the general and (:) special categories. However, it also establishes that a single family residence would have to accommodate both the overhead staff and, if approved, up to eight residents. This large number " of adults in a normal sized residence can be expected to create some parking problems even if none of the residents drive. It is reasonable to expect that periodically they will be visited by friends and family who will need a place to park while they are there. This can be expected to create congestion. 20. Further, the residents of this group home will not be ,the routine senior citizens. If past experience is anything of a predictor of the future, it is reasonable to expect that at least some of the residents will not remain inside the home at all times and may wander the neighborhood. The experiences of .....\ ~ neighbors who have gone on record in this matter are a good predictor of what may be expected in the future. . " I .'~ 'n ,..< 21. The neighborhood in question is described as a residential neighborhood of reasonably up-scale homes, the value of which represents a significant portion of the net worth of their owners. The residence in question is a commercial operation. The Board found, and it is reasonable to expect, that the thirty-three percent increase in residents of the existing home, with a relative increase in the problems attendant thereto, would have a substantial detrimental effect on the property values of the surrounding residential properties, and Petitioners, notwithstanding their obviously sincere promises to do all they can to prevent that, have not shown that they can reasonably do so. 22. Taken together, the evidence does not show that the ~ ~~} decision of the Board was incorrect'or departed from the essential requirements of' the law. Based on the foregoing Findings of Fact and Conclusions of Law, it is, therefore: ORDERED THAT the appeal of Generosa T. Santos and Rose W. Milam of the decision of the City of Clearwater's Planning and Zoning Board denying their application for a conditional use permit expanding the capacity of property located at 1430 Palmetto Street, in the city of Clearwater, to an eight bed facility, is hereby DENIED and the Board's decision is affirmed. o 10 f) . ,.~!:i o ,.' "") "--..' 1.'<< .' I. , . DONE and ENTERED this 5th day of June, 1997, in Tallahassee, t:il~(dC( //Jf(.,~ ARNOLD H. POLLOCK Administrative Law Judge Division of Administrative Hearings The DeSoto Building 1230 Apalachee Parkway Tallahassee, Florida 32399-3060 (904) 489-9675 SUNCOM 278-9675 . Florida. .' Fax Filing (904) 921-6947 Filed with the Clerk of the Division of Administrative Hearings this 5th day of June, 1997. COPIES 'FURNISHED: . Generosa T. Santos. Oscar Santos Rose W. Milam 1430 palmetto Street Clearwater, Florida 34615 Leslie 'K. Dougall-Sides, Esquire City of Clearwater Post office Box 4748 Clearwater, Florida 34618-4748' Cynthia E. Godeau City Clerk City of' Clearwater Post Office Box 4748 Clearwater, Florida 34618-4748 NOTICE OF RIGHT TO JUDICIAL REVIEW A party who is adversely affected by this Final'Order is entitled to judicial review. Review proceedings are governed by the Florida Rules of Appellate Procedure. Such proceedings are commenced by filing one copy of a Notice of Appeal with the agency clerk of the Division of Administrative Hearings and a second copy, accompanied by filing fees prescribed by law, with the District Court of Appeal, First District, or with the District Court of 'Appeal in the appellate district where the party resides. The Notice of Appeal must be filed within 30 days of rendition of the order to be reviewed. 11 1 ..,t, ' ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 5 w. MILAM, (WHITE PALACE), STATE OF FLORIDA REe1='l VED OF ADMINISTRATIVE HEARINGS HAY 7 12 06 PH '97 CASE'NO. 97-1108 /J uJJ UIVJS/ON OF n{UI ADMIN/S TRATlYE HEARINGS ' ~r0![PJ~ 1 ~ " ~ . .~f I 2 DIVISION 3 4 GENEROSA T. SANTOS AND ROSE , I 6 Petitioner 7 Vs. , ," 8 CITY OF CLEARWATER, . . ,. " 9 Respondent . I .' 10 . .'. . . . . . . . . .. . . . .- . . . . .. . . . . . 11 BEFORE: ARNOLD H. POLLOCK '12 ADMINISTRATIVE LAW JUDGE ,. .:: .' ...~ t, 13 DATE: APRIL 16, 1997 14 9:00 A.M. TO 10:20 A.M. 15 LOCATION: MUNICIPAL SERVICES BUILDING 16 100 SOUTH MYRTLE AVENUE 17 CLEARWATER, FL 18 REPORTER: DENISE ANN HERROLD 19 NOTARY PUBLIC 20 STATE OF FLORIDA AT LARGE 21 22 o & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. 23 915 CHESTNUT STREET 24 CLEARWATER, FL 34616 ", 't:S 25 "(813) 468-2002 FAX (813) 468-2003 D & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813)' 468,-2002 I " 'J tt~, '" . " . . .' ,p'. ~, ~ . . - . I :/ ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 2 1 A P PEA RAN C E S: n ,.~ ,";. 2 For the Respondent: ' , L~SLIE K. DOUGALL-SIDES, ESQ. CITY OF CLEARWATER '3 'l'~ . . , " '4 P.O. BOX 4748 o 5 6 * 7 8 . Petitioner's 9 'Exhibit Nos. 10 1 11 12 '* 13 14 Witness CLEARWATER, FL 34618-4748 * * * E X H I BIT S '" Marked for , , ' f' '.~ l Description Identification <I. ; Letters of Recommendation 11 " , , * * * I N 0 E X Direct Ex. Cross-Ex. Redirect Recross ~ ~ 15 Oscar Santos 11 16 16 Thelma Pope 28 38 17 Sandra E. Glatthorn 20 " 18 DonaldC. Pope 42 19 * * * * I I ,I I I I I 20 21 22 23 24 "0 /.~ , 25 ". 0' & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC.. (813) 46i?-2002 ~~lW.~oi".~ r '-'~""'~t.U;~J,.!"''''.\y;,';'\,':j.~~j'd:~. ;....'...\'~ ~ \ t' ,lo ~,.. ~. f ~ t :..:;. ;. . . I . ~ c f , \ ..; ," ." .... . ...". . : ". ,.' ," . ~.,' . . ' '.' ~. ~.. . .- " ~ o . 0, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 J.O 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I, ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 3 THE COURT: Are you ready, Miss Dougall-Sides? MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: Yes, Your Honor. THE COURT: Are you ready, Mr. Santos? MR. SANTOS: Yes, Your Honor. THE COURT: We are in Clearwater, Florida, for a final hearing in the case involving Generosa T. Santos and Rose W. Milam. Is she not here? MR. SANTOS: She's not. THE COURT: As petitioners basically doing business as White Palace; is that the name of the facility? MR. SANTOS: That's right. THE COURT: Versus the city of Clearwater as Respondent. My name is Arnold Pollock. I've been appointed as the Administrative Law Judge in this case for the state of Florida's Division of Hearings, and this case bears the Division's case number of 97-1108. The issue for consideration in this case is whether the application of Mr. Santos and -- is it Milam or Milam? MS. SANTOS: Milam. THE COURT: For a conditional use permit to conduct a Levell Group Care Facility at their property in Palmetto located -- it's actually unit 1, 'Lot 5, Palm Terrace Subdivision, otherwise known D & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 '$;...~...}.~Jf~."~~'-".;! ~.~~ + +;;., ......L"'...~...-l'",,~ct.~.., " , ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 4 ~ o 1 as 1430 Palmetto street, should be granted. The city of Clearwater's Zoning Board met previous to this time and in a four-to-three vote voted'to deny the application, and Mrs. santos and 2 3 4 6 Miss Milam have appealed, and we're here for the purpose of a de novo hearing on whether or not the 5 7 application should be denied. Okay. 8 Rather than have the pro se parties -- how do you-all propose to do this? What's your experience in doing this? How do you prefer to do them? Do you prefer to have them put their case on and you 9 10 11 12 respond or you put your case on and let them -- recognizing the burden rests with them, whoever o 13 14 goes first. 15 MR. SANTOS: Your Honor, I do have a question 16 if I may. The question for this hearing is not for 17 the actual approval to operate the ALP. It's for 18 19 an increase of beds, if I'm not mistaken. THE COURT: Well, conditional use request is 20 21 what it's listed as. How do you see it, Miss Dougall-Sides? 22 MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: Well, our normal procedure 23 is to have 7- 24 THE COURT: No, no, I mean, how do you see the o 25 issue? D & D. REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 , " ...... ." .. ~ I". .1. .' : ..' ~ , .. '." , , ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 5 1 MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: The conditional use n 2 approval request was for an expansion from six to 3 eight beds. That increase in the number of 4 residents kicks in a zoning category in the city 5 which requires a conditional use approval. six or 6 fewer beds are allowed as of right in that zoning 7 district. 8 THE COURT: In other words, what you're saying 9 is if they retain it at six, they can stay and keep 10 operating as it is. 11 MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: That's correct. 12 THE COURT: But if they want to go for the 13 additional two beds, then you'd have to have the r~ ~t~ 14 permit. 15 MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: Yes. 16 THE COURT: Conditional use permit to put in 17 the two additional beds and to continue to operate 18 with two additional beds. Basically, that's what 19 it is. What is your practice, did you say? 20 MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: Our normal practice is to 21 take opening statements, and then since the burden 22 is on the Appellants, we'd have them present their 23 case and then the city present its case. 24 THE COURT: I,understand you've already o 25 presented this once'to the Zoning Board? D & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 ~ " ; . ,'. ' " ~ . I . . ',' .': . . u ~ ..." ~ .' - . t .,. ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 6 1 MR. SANTOS: Yeah. Unfortunately, I wasn't I~ present at that time, Your Honor. I really would 2 3 like to give Mr. and Mrs. Pope the first 4 opportunity because, believe it or not, this will 5 be our first formal -- 6 THE COURT: Meeting? MR. SANTOS: ...:- meeting as far as being able to talk to one another, and unfortunately, it has to come to this type of situation, so I really want to know because we want to resolve this matter in a .7 8 9 10 11 very civilized manner. We are willing to 12 compromise. We 'just want to know what the main 13 problem is. f1'~ ~~~) 14 THE COURT: Well, I think the main problem, 1.5 Mr. Santos, has been outlined in -- do you have 16 copies of Mr. and Mrs. Pope's letter, and those of 17 the other neighbors who filed their objections in 18 response to a solicitation from the City? 19 MR. SANTOS: Yes. , , .~ ...-... 20 THE COURT: So I think you know what their objection is. Whether you want time if you want 21 22 time to perhaps talk with the Popes and see if you 23 can convince them that it's okay in an effort of 24 settling that, that's one thing, but that should {':',) W 25 have been done before we came here today. o & 0 REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 . 1 I 1 I i I 1 [ ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING ., 1 MR. SANTOS: We do understand that, sir, and rJ 2 we have actually followed instruction by the Court 3 to'try and settle it, but the last time that my 4 wife tried to talk to them, they said in quotes, 5 They are not to -- they are advised by their lawyer 6 not to talk to us anymore. 7 THE COURT: To be perfectly honest with you, 8 Mr. Santos, I'm here. I'm going to go through the 9 hearing. I suggest that you present your reasons 10 for wanting the thing wanting the expansion. 11 The city the Popes a~e actually not a party. 1.2 It's the city. 1.3 MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: I should mention that C"" I ..' ~~J 15 these hearings are sort of a hybrid -- it is noticed as a public hearing, and I'm assuming that 1.4 " 1.6 the Popes are here in response to that public 1.7 hearing notice. 1.8 THE COURT: They can be heard. 19 MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: I did not plan to call 20 them as a witness, but they certainly under normal 21 procedure would then have the right to be heard. 22 THE COURT: I understand that, but the point 23 is the two parties involved are the City and you, 24 and the Popes will be heard. I'll hear what they o 25 have to say, and I will consider it as evidence, o & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 "!i:i ,':~;~: ;:/'::",.;Ci:: :;!;.(.,.\:: :,,::.;..;;,;:.:<.;../....'::::;::,~. \<:;;:l\{,.:i::'.f ..;\:,:/:,,',':(':':} ',~",'~::::~;:.,::i~::,:i)i:.; ; :':',",?::.(.\:'(,:: '~l" ','. ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 8 1 along with any other evidence, but you have the (J 2 burden of going forward with the evidence to prove 3 you're entitled to the permit. Are you ready to do 4 that? Do you want to make an opening statement? '5 MR. SANTOS: Do they want to start? 6 THE COURT: No. You go first. Do you want to 7 make an opening statement before you start 8 presenting testimony? 9 MR. SANTOS: Not really -- well, in a way, 10 yes, because, like I said earlier, that we would 11 like to get to some type of an agreement. I didn't 12 think that what we're asking for an additional 13 increase on the beds is unreasonable. It is (rm..,) ,,~\-:.I}t 14 something that rightfully belongs to the facility 15 to begin with before the acquisition of my wife. 16 THE COURT: Do you want to wait until it's 17 your turn to make the opening statement, or do you 18 want to make a statement now? 19 MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: I'd prefer to go ahead 20 now, if you don't mind. The Appellant here has 21 requested below a conditional use approval for 22 what's termed a Level 1 Group Care Facility under 23 the Definition section of our city code, 35.11. 24 That is defined as the dwelling unit providing a " ' , < V 25 living environment for seven to fourteen related or D & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 Qiti l' +,,~ . "~P""'" ... M....~>..,~ I ., . ,..:" . .;' '. " .'.' ,.:."'"" .." ',: ~ IHfi~I' 't."";,{J') ;.:.t.~. .'I o t(f.lt.~~:Y'I~r;. II" +'.,......~' . . . w........,ho . -, {,. ..L .' ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 9 1 unrelated residents who operate as a family unit. 2 AS I mentioned earlier, six or fewer would be 3 able to, operate as of right under the zoning code. 4 And this Applicant wished to expand the number of 5 residents from six to eight. 6 The matter then went to the Planning and 7 Zoning Board which is our hearing board for a conditional use applicants. The staff 9 recommendation was neutral to favorable for 10 this applicant. However, the staff had not heard 11 from the neighbors who were objecting to it. 12 At the Planning and Zoning Board hearing, the 13 Board encountered significant opposition from the 14 neighbors as is reflected in the tape of the 1.5 hearing and in the file which Your Honor has with a 16 number of written letters addressed to the Board 17 with the objections of the neighbors. 18 The Board did deny the application apparently 19 on the basis of compatibility or noncompatibility 20 with the neighborhood, disturbance of the 21 neighborhood, and one of the criteria of our zoning 22 code is that the application must be consistent 23 with the community character of the surrounding -24 property. So this was the basis for denial. 25 While mere opinion of neighbors under relevant o & 0 REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 .I~ .~~\;';t. (l<S;) o ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 1 case law may not be enough to deny an applicant, it 10 .~{',:.\;":, "Y ,;::' ,.~,:,.. / ';;".:: '::'::,::' .\:", ;;:i, ',:r:)~,~{:':,'\/.s>':;(,>,:,/'" ":.;i;;;.!::::~.'~;';/':,;>,;;A':"~ \'" ':: i,:?:.:; ",i,;: ;,::'~;g ,",;.;';:i -t- o?!'~ .'C-,.-t,,). r , 2 was apparent from the neighbors' comments that it .3 was not merely their personal opinion or 4 philosophical opposition to the concept that they 5 were relying on for their objections, but they did 6 cite specific incidents which had occurred which 7 they felt showed the inappropriateness of the 8 particular operation. And, of course, this 9 applicant did have a history of operating with six 10 or fewer residents. It's not a new application, so 11 the neighbors did have some past history to look 12 at. 13 Thus, the city would argue that there was a 14 factual basis for the Board's action, not simply 15 neighborhood opinion. The city does rely mainly on 16 the record below in this case. I will have Miss 17 Glatthorn testify briefly as to the zoning history 18 and her records. The burden of proof is on the 19 Appellant here, and we believe that the evidence 20 will demonstrate that substantial competent .21 evidence supported the Board's decision below. 22 THE COURT: Mr. Santos, do you want to call 23 your first witness? Do you have anyone to testify 24 or do you want to testify? 25 I just have a letter of MRS. SANTOS: D & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 f1 o " " o ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 11 1 recommendation from the agency which I sent my 2 application. 3 THE COURT: We'll mark this as Petitioner's 1 4 for identification. Have you seen this, Mrs. 5 Dougall-Sides? 6 MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: No, I don't believe I 7 ha~e, sir. No objection. 8 THE COURT: All right. I'll mark it and 9 receive it into evidence then as Petitioner's 10 Exhibit 1. 11 (At this time Petitioner's Exhibit No.1 12 was marked for identification and admitted 13 into the record.) 14 THE COURT: Who is going to testify for your 15 side,. Mrs. santos? 16 MRS. SANTOS: It's just us. 17 THE COURT: Who wants to go first? 18 MR. . SANTOS: I'd like to say something, sir. 19 o S CAR SAN T 0 S 20 WAS CALLED AND AFTER BEING DULY SWORN WAS EXAMINED AND 21 TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: 22 23 ' DIRECT EXAMINATION 24 BY MR. POLLOCK: 25 state your full name, please. Q. o & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 '''''','.'',,'''. o ~~ ~~q1 ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 12 1 A. ,My name is Oscar D. Santos. s-a-n-t-o-s? Yes, sir. What city do you reside in? I reside at 143 --- No, just the city. Clearwater, Florida. Go ahead. Mainly the opposition on us getting an 14 find it to be very -- I'm a very sensitive person when 10 increase on the beds that we have requested trying to -- 11 apparently trying to show that they're discrediting us 12 not being capable of running the facility as they claim 13 . to be. Like I said, I've read the transcript, and I 1.5 it comes to this because they even were attacking our 16 family, which I don't think is even related to the 17 request for the bed increase. 2 Q. When you say you read the transcript,-what 19 transcript are'you speaking of? 24 t-,/) W 3 A. 4 Q. 5 A. 6 Q. 7 A. 8 Q. 9 A. 18 Q. 23 A. Q. A. Q. that. A. 25 I have not read that. I'll have to listen to I would like to respond to every remark they o & 0 REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 1 ~ ~ ::,' 13 ~~) ~ ,14 ~~ 15 16 17 18 19 ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 13 1 have here if I may, and most important I want to 2 respond, and I really want to emphasize it because my 3 priority is my family. I was raised in a great family 4 values, and one of the main concerns here is that our 5 kids who reside in the same facility are not being 6 brought up properly. 7 Well, Your Honor, 1 have proof here of 8 credentials of my kids' schooling who have been 9 exemplary to very good. If they claim that that is not 10 a good environment for my kid, I do have this as proof., 11 Secondary, we did not get involved with the 12 ALF facility instantly. It's something that we have thought and thought over for a while. We have actually made some time to observe other facilities. There are other facilities around, and if I may name one, it's called Leisure Living whichl is actually run also by a family with twelve residents. There has been no record of any violation or not following any guidelines that is stated by the city of Clearwater or the state or the 20 HRS. We haven't been cited for anything. I think our 21 record so far has been impeccable. 22 I strongly believe that this is something that 23 probably could have been settled because it seems that 24 the matter is being -- was brought to us in a more u ';;"ltPlt,.. ;....,<1'" . . 1 'R" . ~'. ~ , . " . ~ ..' . II.' .' '. I.~.....'.'. 25 personal level as opposed to the business aspects of it. D & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 r"} I'"~ I"lfl':;.~) \.J .... ".....;/ :".."(.1 ~ .,.-, .-- ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 14 1 They claim that the residents -- the term they 2 used is homeless. Actually, these residents that we 3 have have families. Their families are free to visit 4 them any time they want to. In fact, they pick them up 5 o~ holidays. Some will pick them up almost every 6 weekend, and I have pictures here of how we conduct, 7 celebrate some holidays with the residents. 8 Again, they're saying that they're violent. I 9 think violence is inflicted by a nonviolent (sic). If 10 we know that they will be threat to others, we'd sure 11 damn know that they're a threat to us first as far as 12 any possible violence occurring, and I would never put 13 my family in that situation. 14 My wife is trained and qualified to handle the 15 facility, and I think she has done a tremendous job. 16 Between myself and her and another staff that's also a 17 relative of ours, I think we're operating the facility 18 as smoot~ly as we can. 19 The two residents which are -- actually one 20 resident that was named in one of the complaints was 21 actually dismissed prior to the first hearing, and she 22 was dismissed in our own cognizance, mainly, because 23 she's been counseled pertaining to Mr. and Mrs. Honka's 24 testimony about Miss Cindy Crane. I do have a picture 25 of Cindy Crane there, which they really had -- cindy D & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 ~. ."' , . , . ~ ,J ~ . . .::' . ._' . '. ~ " .' '. ,..'.' ... () (~) o ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 1 Crane is one of our very active, very sociable. She, in 15 . . ':,:L)'/.<:~ ,.'::. i, .. ';':. .' ..... ,..':, .... .. ,:::. : i:'d;':'::U:: ':':':}; \;<:~};}!:,: ,t,..:"i' :;Yf}) ,~:',' ;::ii{t,:..e '::';;:j,;'::\F\'?'::\";} 2 fact, has her own driver's license. She drives around 3 whenever she wants to. They have to realize these 4 people are not to be locked in the facility. 5 The moment that it was brought to me by Mr. 6 Honka about the disturbance of Miss crane, and 7 unfortunately, Mr. Honka wasn't here because I have a 8 fairly good relationship with Mr. and Mrs. Honka. We 9 talk. In fact, there are'times we even socialize, and 10 he had said that it reminds me of the fact that I'd 11 promptly rectify the problem if there was one. It's not 12 something that we ignore. 13 Like I said, again, the resident that's in 14 question is no longer with us prior to even the hearing. 15 We want to keep it safe. We don't want to inconvenience 16 the neighborhood. Time and time again we have made 17 effort to talk to our neighbor, Mr. and Mrs. Pope and 18 haven't had any success. For whatever reason, I don't 19 know. 20 But I think the facility is entitled for a bed 21 increase, given all the facts that we;meet all the 22 requirements, and by the end of this hearing if it's 23 proven to be that we are not entitled for this increase, 24 then I rest my case, Your Honor. 25 Do you want to cross-examine? THE COURT: D & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 ....L.z:'II.,IiF-.,," ..;0:.. ..,.. I . . . ~ .....0:. n {t',.:, .0 o " o I, ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 16 I I I j I j I I I 1 MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: Yes, just briefly. 2 3 CROSS-EXAMINATION 4 BY MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: 8 Q. A. Q. you? A. . Q. No. My wife actually is on the title. 9 11 conditional use approval? .12 A. Did I sign it, ma'am? 13 You did not sign it, did you? Your wife Q. 14 signed it? 15 A. Yes. 16 MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: Nothing further. 17 THE COURT: Anything else, Mr. santos? THE WITNESS: Well, after the hearing, we had made an effort because, like I said, it became -- 'it was something that was told to us to find ourselves to be in that situation that we 18 19 20 21 2'2 apparently have some neighbors that was obviously 23 solicited to complain about their facility. 24 As far as I'm concerned, the only two 25 neighbors that are even aware of the facility D & 0 REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 -',001 ..:..I'..'...:.....~..:'~.~.,.. '~'lw :.~ L~' ~". 1 ~ ~, '~ . <.' 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 '9 10 11 1.2 13 o 14 15 16 17 1.8 19 20 21 22 23 24 ~ 25 ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 17 existing is my neighbor on both sides, Mr. and Mrs. Honka and Mr. and Mrs. Pope. In fact, right after the first hearing, I don't know exactly their name -- do you know their name -- had approached my wife and said that they're not even opposing to the facility or the bed increase. And then we have also made an effort because a couple of days after the hearing this gentleman who appeared to be really homeless, he was a street person, was wondering around, had been knocking on the doors, knocking on everybody'S door. He even knocked on our door. As a sign of good gesture, I just gave him something to eat, and he kept going, and at the very end part of the house, which I believe is Mr. and Mrs. -- it's on Palmetto, if I'm not mistaken, it's Mr. and Mrs. Harmon, their residence, I saw them coming out and, again, assuming that the gentleman came from our facility. So I told my wife. Let's stop, let's get out to them, and you talk to them and tell them that that gentleman was not from our facility. THE COURT: Do you have any other witnesses you want to call? Mrs. Santos, is there anything she can add? MR. SANTOS: They have mentioned -- if I may D & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 18 1 add, sir, that they didn't have a problem about n 2 elderly residents. We're very flexible. If that's 3 the way to compromise, we can handle elderly 4 residents if they want to. 5 THE COURT: All right. Do you have any 6 further cross? 7 MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: No, sir, but may I ask if 8 Mr. Santos was offering these items as exhibits? 9 THE COURT: These all appear to be originals, 10 and I don't want to take them from you if you have 11 copies. Are you offering these as exhibits? If 12 you are, I'm going to have to ask you to make 13 copies for me and submit the copies because I don't "'>';-"'~" , ( ) ......:t.l;.'I-7 14 want to take your son's citizen of the month 15 award, the honor roll award. 16 As far as the certificates for savings, that 17 doesn't reflect anybody's name on there, but if 18 you'll make copies of these. Now, as far as the 19 pictures are concerned, I'm going to consider these I- 20 primarily as a demonstrative exhibit. I'm not 21. going to consider them as evidence; merely as your 22 support of what you're saying, and they are 23 pictures of what appear to be a number of adults in 24 a family setting. Some around the dinner table. u 25 As a matter of fact, most around the dinner table; o & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 ~'~j'.;~,~.n~o' ........,. < I ..~ "'~.I>o'.:, ':, ',": ...... ~:... ".:"~.. ,'. . , . ~ ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 19 1 some sitting in what appears to be the living room ~ ~>.:~," 2 of a home, more eating, more eating. I understand 3 that you're offering these in an effort to show the 4 family atmosphere. 5 MR. SANTOS: The family atmosphere because 6 that's what it is. 7 THE COURT: Do you have any objection for me 8 just looking at them for that purpose as 9 demonstrative? 10 MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: No, sir. 11 THE COURT: Because I will not accept them as 12 an exhibit, and then I won't take them from him. ~Ifj,\ ~tf.~" 13 MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: The city would object to 14 the other certificates just on relevance grounds. 15 I don't believe there was an issue as to 16 THE COURT: No, but it is in support of his 17 position that they are operating the facility as 18 their family home, and that exposure to the clients 19 up to that point, apparently, has not done any 20 damage to their son's success in academics and 21 citizenship and for that purpose is what I'm 22 considering it only. 23 Is there anything else you have to offer 24 before I turn it over to Mrs. Dougall-Sides? u 25 MR. SANTOS: No. D & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 'j': .... . " ~ . I ~. ..', .-/ 'I, . ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 20 1 THE COURT: Okay, you rest. Okay. All right, ~ '>~, .. ~ 2 Mrs. Dougall-Sides, the floor is yours. 3 MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: The city would call Sandra 4 Glatthorn. ., 5 SAN D R A G L A T THO R N 6 WAS, CALLED AND AFTER BEING DULY SWORN WAS EXAMINED AND 7 TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: 8 THE COURT: State your full name, please. 9 THE WITNESS: Sandra E. Glatthorn. " 10 THE COURT: S-a-n-d-r-a or is there a U? 11 THE WITNESS: S-a-- 12 THE COURT: S-A-N-D-R-A E. -- 13 THE WITNESS: G-l-a-t-t-h-o-r-n. c~ .~~t'!} 14 THE COURT: What city do you reside in, .15 please? 16 THE WITNESS: I reside in Largo. 17 18 DIRECT EXAMINATION 19 BY MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: 20 Q. Miss Glatthorn, are you employed with the city 21 of Clearwater? 22 A. Yes, I am. 23 Q. In what capacity? 24 A.. Planning Administrator. (J 25 Q.. How long have you held that position? D & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 :.a ..~. < c, ." . ~-. .....q,...... .......'HI_ 3 A. I assist the director of the department in 21 ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 1 A. That particular title, about one year. () 2 Q. What are your job duties in that position? 4 various responsibilities, budgets, preparation of 5 reports, overseeing materials that go out of the 6 department. Attending hearings such as this one and -- 7 is that enough? 8 Q. That's fine. Did you review the files 9 regarding this property involved today regarding the 11 A. Yes. 10 zoning history? 12 Q. What did you find in the city records 13 regarding the zoning of the property? ~'lt.) C _ i.t~n!.. 14 A. Well, it's been a single-family zoning 15 property. Our records indicate that since 1983 there 16 has been an adult congregate living facility or assisted 17 living facility as they are now called at this location. 18 Q. When you say facility, do the records indicate 19 how many residents were present? 20 A. They did indicate that it was established for 21 six clients in 1983. Well, actually, in 1985 they were ,22 approved for eight, but then there was a period of time 23 of more than two years where there was no business 24 license at this location. (1\.;~ ~ 25 Q. Does the city consider the approval then to D & 0 REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 I I I \ :',:'::"., \i':;' ';');...{:\'..... (:/,':;':}:'>) \.' (':;0; .',:','} ;':";~";";';';.."':'::!i::;': ,.::,. ::'/'..~'..';:':',::;..,'. ;,'.:,,:{(3?',:.'.': !:i ( ". o '. ~~~)' (." .~ J.~:~i' ,0 ~tW~\:t :~I.c, ~.....J i..... - . 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21. 22 23 24 ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 22 1 have lapsed? 2 Yes. Then in March of 1994 Mrs. Santos A. 3 received approval for six clients for an adult 4 congregate living facility at this location. 5 THE COURT: When was that, ma'am? 6 THE WITNESS: In 1994 March. 7 THE COURT: Mrs. Santos did what? 8 BY MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: 9 A. She received zoning approval for six clients 'r I t ! I i ! I I i 10 as an adult congregate living facility. Q. Do the records reflect any further licensing between that time and this application? A. No. THE COURT: When was this application filed? THE WITNESS: It was actually filed December 15, 1996, is the date on the application. THE COURT: That's eight clients? THE WITNESS: Yes. THE COURT: I'm sorry, Mrs. Dougall-Sides. I shouldn't interrupt like that. MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: Oh, that's fine. In the record you will find the complete application and staff report. THE COURT: I have no doubt. 25 BY MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: . .o-...c....; '0 & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 "'. ',1' . "'Il;. .; '.' :';: ~ :',', ~ ',I,': .':,':...~. -',' ':.. '. . ':'., (') " , " (~' ~.t.,) 15 16 ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 23 1 Miss Glatthorn, did you prepare a staff report Q. 2 for this application? Did your department prepare a 3 staff ~eport? 4 A. Yes. 5 Did you review that staff report? Q. 6 Yes, I did. A. 7 Q. What was the recommendation of the report to 8 the Board? 9 The recommendation was tha~ staff supported A. 1.0 the request. We felt it was -- from the information 11 submitted in the application, it seemed like it would be 1.2 compatible. 13 Q. Did you then attend the Planning and zoning 14 Board meeting of February 4, 1997? A. Yes, I did. Q. Did you hear the testimony that was taken 17 regarding the application at that meeting? 18 19 20 21 A. Yes. Q. The Board denied the application, correct? A. Yes, they did. Q. What was your understanding of the reasons for 22 the Board denia2? 23 A. The reasons primarily they felt it was not 24 compatible with surrounding properties, and that there 0, 25 was a negative impact on surrounding properties. ~f ", ' ',"" . . ~ _, ., :':' '::, . . ':. .. .. , D & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 'J. . c' ~" , ' , .'..:..... Q (J 10 1.1 ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 24 1 To your knowledge, did anyone from the city Q. 2 staff solicit neighbors to appear in opposition to the 3 application? 4 No. A. 5 Having heard the testimony at the hearing, do Q. 6 you agree or disagree with the Board's decision at this 7 point? 8 After having benefit of the public hearing, A. 9 staff would support the decision made by the Board. Q. Why is that? A. It was brought out as the Board indicated that 12 there were some complaints, that the neighbors felt the 13 use 'was not compatible with their single-family 14 properties, that there were some negative impacts from 15 this facility, and they didn't want to increase the 16 number of clients. 17 Q. Can you describe for the Judge the zoning 18 requirements for Level 1 Group Care Facilities in the 19 RS-B District. 20 A. In the RS-8 zoning district the use of Level 1 21 Group Care is a conditional use. that's subject'to 22 approval by the Planning and Zoning Board after pUblic 23 hearing. 24 Q. And what type of uses are allowed generally in 25 an RS-8? D & 0 REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 G o o .. ,-. I,' , ': ',~: f :.< . I , I ,'. ~ .' ~ .. ~. ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 A. It's primarily a single-family zone, residential single family at 7.5 units per acre, and the principal uses would be single-family residents or family care which is in the same setting as the single-family residents for including six clients. Q. So six or fewer it's called family care? A. Yes. Q. Seven to fourteen it's called Level 1 Group 9 Care? 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. That's correct. Q. What type of clients are allowed by the zoning code in those facilities? A. By the zoning code they could have clients elder.ly, physically or mentally handicapped, non-dangerous, mentally ill clients. Q. But something like prisoners or a halfway home for criminals, defendants, would not be allowed? A. That's correct. Q. What, if ,any, distance restrictions regarding this type of facility exists in the zoning code? A. Well, being that this is a conditional use urider the RS-S, we do not apply the distan6e restrictions from the single-family district because the conditional use covers that approval. MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: I have no further o & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 l~:.. ." o 10 11 12 13 ~ ~ 14 ~ 15 16 17 18 :.1 "19 20 21 22 23 24 o 25 I J .,~ .'.,.' " I , .. ." ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 26 1 questions. 2 THE COURT: 'Any questions of the witness? 3 MR. SANTOS: No, Your Honor. 4 THE COURT: No cross. All right. , 5 MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: The city has several 6 exhibits of various code sections that it would 7 like to introduce. Section 35.11, Definitions. B THE COURT: Have you seen these? 9 MR. SANTOS: No. THE' COURT: 35.11, Definitions. This is of the Clearwater City COde, is that correct? MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: Yes, sir. THE COURT: I can officially recognize those without having them admitted into evidence. Do you know what that means? MR. SANTOS: No. THE COURT: What that means is that ordinarily what I'm going to consider has to be proven to be authentic. In other words, it has to be -- the certificate, for example, I could have required you to bring the principal of the school in to show that that certificate was really for your son. Or I could have required somebody to testify, whoever took those photographs, that they are the ones that took the photographs and that they accurately o & 0 REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 ~ ':: ,. ~~ v~~ "0 ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 27 1 demonstrate the situation existed. That's what 2 normally happens. 3 There is an exception, however, in regard to 4 such things as statutes, rules, city codes, laws, 5 which are published which are well-known which 6 anybody has access to. They do not have to be 7 proven by testimony. If there's a copy of it, and 8 everybody agrees that it's a copy of the law, I can 9 consider the law because I don't have to make any 10 facts. I don't change the law. I merely apply the 11 law to the facts. 12 So when I say I officially recognize those 1.3 provisions of the city code, what I am saying is, 14 yes, I will look at, Section 35.11 of the 15 Clearwater city Code and whatever other extracts 1.6 from the city code that she asks for. It's not 1.7 evidence. It's merely the law. 18 Then continuing, section MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: 1.9 41.201, Family, Group and Congregate Care facility. 20 Section 36.033, Planning and Zoning Board. 21 s~ction 40.101 through 40.106 which are the zoning 22 requirements for the RS-8 Zoning District, and 23 finally Section 41.021 through 41.053, which are 24 the conditional use approval criteria. 25 And the city would rest. D & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 1 THE COURT: Do you have any objection or any problem with me applying those rules and those ~ ~:':..f:?' "':'\;JI ,2 3 provisions of the city Code to this case? 4 MR. SANTOS: NOt Your Honor. 5 THE COURT: I don't see why you should. I 6 mean, that's the law that I have to follow. May I 7 have them back, please. That one, too. I will 8 then officially recognize, and use in my 9 consideration of the matters herein those provisions of the Clea~water City Code which have been referred to by counsel for the City, and they 10 11 ,12 are -- I will give the numbers 35.11, 41.201, . " 13 36.033, 40.101 through 40.106 and 41.021 through ,'0 14 41.053. The city has rested. 15 NoW, we have the opportunity to open the door 16 for public comments. 17 THE L MAP 0 P E 18 WAS CALLED AND AFTER BEING DULY SWORN WAS EXAMINED AND 19 TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: 20 21. .DIRECT EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. POLLOCK: 23 state your full name, please. Q. 24 Thelma, T-h-e-I-m-a, 0, middle initial, Pope, A. ,,~'<, '~ 25 P-o-p-e. ~ ". o & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 28 ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 29 1 Q. Mrs. Pope, what city do you reside in? () 2 A. Clearwater. 3 Q. Mrs. Pope, let me advise you before you 4 testify that you may be asked questions if you do 5 testify by either Mr. Santos or Mrs. santos or the city 6 attorney. You don't have any problem with that? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Go ahead. 9 A. I just wanted to address the fact that she 10 said that they run it as a horne, okay. Now, they take 11 their people from I understand Directions. Directions 12 have a lot of mentally ill people there. Those mentally o ~r1. 13 ill people apparently are on drugs. He says they're 14 non-violent, but on February 4, '97, I called the 15 police, that was the day 'we had the hearing. I called 16 the pOlice because my neighbors told me when I got home 17 that the police had been there twice. You can check 18 this on the police records. 1~ They. told me then that the rescue ambulance 20 and police were there because a resident hit one of the 21 employees. Now, if that's not violence, I don't know 22 what is. Another thing that happened, and I'm not 23 saying this is because of violence, but the windows were 24 broken out of the front bedroom one day. :~..J 25 Q. Whose front bedroom? D & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 '_"" 1. .~.. ""', r"T ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 30 1 I, mean, there was no window. It's not there A. ~ 2 at all. 3 Are you talking about your front bedroom? Q. 4 No, theirs. A. 5 This is all stuff that happened in the Santos Q. 6 home? 7 A. Yeah. Now, I'm not saying that someone broke 8 th~ windows out, but the windows just don't get broken 9 out of their own accord, you know. She said something 10 about at the last meeting she said -- they asked her if 11 she would stay in the house what she would do if they 12 got eight people in the house, eight residents. She ~tl t;1 13 said at that point they would move out and bring in 14 people to take care of them. So it is no longer a home. 15 It is,facility. It is an institution. 16 I was trying to think what else I need to tell 1.7 you. As for Honka, he is a nice fellow, and he is very 1.8 friendly with you, Oscar, but he told me he's petrified 1.9 of his daughter being in there. She's 15 years old. 20 Those things count, those things make your life richer 21 or poorer. 22 This is what we all have is what we live from 23 day-to-day, and a lot of us don't want to leave. We 24 don't want to leave our homes, but what do we do, you o 25 know. Our question was not that they were abusing their D & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 " . . i' ,,' ",_ I ',I... .,..,'.' "'. ',' .,.. .,'" / ' ,I. I I ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 1 children or hurting their children. In fact, I told (~ " ' 2 you, Generosa, that it wasn't. I think you're a 3 wonderful mother, did I not? 4 THE COURT: Well, she can't testify. 5 BY MR. POLLOCK: A. Well, I did. I told her I think she's a ' wonderful mother, and I have very few words with her. I have no question about her being a good mother. My question is is it appropriate for her to have three kids in there with people that are on drugs. I mean, it's just like we're in a horror story here or something, and how can you say it's a family when you're going to move out and leave all those people, and we're going to be at their mercy. How far 15 ,are we from where you live? We're 20 feet away from 16 that house. Every time I get in my car I look at that i;':':~'b 'W 17 house. 18 And as for John Harmon down the street, he 19 came to me and he said, I saw so many police cars one 20 day, three police cars out there that I asked the 21 policeman what was going on. He said they're having an 22 investigation, and we're not allowed to tell you. He 23 said, I'm worried, Taffy. I own this house, this is my 24 home. He said, What is going on? So that's where all 25 this came from. o & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 31 ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 32 1 Oh, and another thing, the complaints from the ~ ,,' 2 neighborhood still stand. I went around and I asked 3 each one, Do you want to change something or do you want 4 to say it's better or it's worse? They said, No, just 5 let it stand., We can't be there, but let it stand. I 6 can't think of anything else I should tell you. 7 Oh, another thing she said, Well, they have no 8 question about us, about doing residents like elderly, 9 which is originally it started out. Originally, the 10 city of Clearwater turned it down. Tallahassee put it ,11 in there, 'anyway. When Tallahassee put it in, it was 12 for six residents, elderly. 13 The first people were in there it was. fine. (.p:.x", '~;;Jj.) 14 We had no quarrel with them. We lived side by side. 15 Except for an ambulance occasionally, there was no 16 .problem with it. The second one or the third one, 17 whatever it was, was a horror story. It was a horror 18 story. I could tell you tales that you wouldn't 19 believe. They went bankrupt, and I said to Don when the 20 new people went in there, I said, I'm not going to have 21 anything to do with them. I'm going to hold my peace 22 until we see what's going to develop. 23 When we started seeing all these weird people 24 walking around, and I had the incident with the police ;~ 25 where the guy tried to knock my door down, then I really o & 0 REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 ..' '. '.'~;.: 2 , '. .-;: " ~ ~L > ',' ". -: ~ '. ': i I 1.'",J a .t:: , '. {" {~'''l~1\ ''f,'!;i.1 :',', o 20 .21 22 23 24 / ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 33 1, got frightened. From there on I was frightened~ when I 2 was in my yard and people startled me. When that girl 3 that they call cindy swore at me that day, she called me 4 everything for no reason. I had my radio on, I was 5 digging in my garden. I didn't hear her. 6 When I turned around, she was in my face 7 screaming at me. Hey, that's violence. That's violence 8 of the worst sort to me. I'm intimidated, I'm 9 frightened. I do not understand how you can keep 10 putting these things in people's neighborhoods. I could 11 see the elderly, I could see -- if you ~ive them I, 12 permission to do eight elderly, what's to say that 13 they're not going to turn around and take people from 14 Directions again. 15 We don't know who's in that house. We don't 16 know from day-to-day. They come and they go. It's like 17 a revolving door. All we want is a little peace, a 18 little quiet. It was a very quiet neighborhood up to a 19 point, and it isn't anymore. THE COURT: Do you have any questions? MRS. POPE: One more thing while I'm still under oath. THE COURT: You're going to be under oath until you leave now. 25 BY MR. POLLOCK: D & 0 REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 , , 1 ~ 2 . ,,", . ~. ' 3 4 5 6 7 ~mtl. '~;~~ 'i' >4:JiL (;) ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 34 A. Well, we went to a seminar, a forum in st. Pete on these elderly homes and stuff, and I learned that we are probably some of the luckier ones. The horror stories I heard at that meeting were unbelievable, and they all concerned 55I patients, the majority of them -- the majority, let me make a correction. Urinating on the front porches, 8 masturbating in the bushes, some real horror stories, 9 and I don't understand -- 10 I realize that there is a problem with the 11 mentally ill, t~at we do not want to institutionalize 12 them. There has to be a better way to do it than this, J.3 that you ruin people's lives. I mean, it's like'having J.4 a bad apple in the pot. It's just radiating, and it!s 15 just ruining. My neighbor's a widow. She's scared to 1~ walk at night. She calls me all the time. And another 17 thing, Mrs. Mullen, is it, Milam? 18 MRS. SANTOS: Milam. 19 BY MR. POLLOCK: 20 A. Mrs,. Milam said at the last meeting that she 21 Carne over from I guess it was the Philippines to take 22 care of our poor and unwanted. Well, Don and I are the 23 caretakers in our neighbor, and you can ask anybody 24 we had an elderly couple behind us. We had a widow on 25 the right. I mean, we are the ones when the widow down o & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 ~ ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 35 1 the street, when she had her hip done, it is Don and I 2 that go out and take care of them and take them to the 3 hospital. We try to fix little things in their house. 4 Don puts little things on the toilets, so they can get 5 up off of the toilet and all those little things that 6 they don't have anybody to do things for. We take care 7 of our own. I kind of resent that, that kind of hurts. 8 We're Americans, we take care of our own. I 9 don't take care of the mentally ill. I don't understand 10 them. I'm afraid of them. I'm not trained for it. I 1.1 really don't think she's trained for it. She's trained 12 in the paperwork, all the paperwork that they do at HRS. C) 13 She's not trained in taking care of our mentally ill. 14 And it's become a very emotional thing, very emotional, 15 and I try very hard not to get emotional about it. It's 17 20 21 22 o 16 cut and dry, but it's really very hard. THE COURT: Let me tell you what my job is. My job , not to put home in there or keep it 1.5 a .out. You said, Why do you continue to put them in there. I don't nor does the Division of 18 19 Administrative Hearing. This is a zoning matter for the city of Clearwater. The City of Clearwater 23 Zoning Department is the one who makes the final 24 decision. I am a state Administrative Law Judge 25 right here under contract. The City of Clearwater D & 0 REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 36 1 is paying the state of Florida for me to come down o 2 and hear the facts. I'm going to make findings of J fact, period. Whatever the city chooses to do is 4 going to be their decision based on the facts I 5 find and the law as it exists. 6 I would suggest to you this, if you have any 7 and you obviously do -- serious heartburn with 8 the system as it exists regarding the placement of 9 foster and adult care homes, I suggest -- and it is 10 a problem. I don't question that. It's a problem 11 not only here. It's a problem allover. I suggest 12 you talk with your legislators about that, because 13 that's where the solution is going to lie. c~ ~& 14 The city and I, I make findings of fact based 15 on evidence. The city takes those facts, and they 16 are bound by their code to apply the code to the 17 facts, and it's almost like a mathematical formula. 18 There is room for consideration, but consideration , , 19 of the facts that you have raised is the reason 20 we're holding the hearing. 21 The zoning Board met to give you opportunity 22 for pUblic comments, and I'm here. I'm going to 23 consider all that, and I'm going to make findings 24 of fact, but if there's a problem with the o 25 situation as it exists, the problem has to be D & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 ::~ ....",. ~.".,',,,,,.~:""'-\: . I" ......: . ,., l.t"., . ....,' .... ";,' +.....~~.. . ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 37 1. resolved at the legislative level, not here. I can .0 2 only make findings of fact in this one case. 3 MRS.. POPE: My one final thing is that what 4 are we going to gain by having eight people over 5 there now when there's a problem with six, and 6 they're going to move out when they get the eight. 7 They're going .to take the three children, and mom 8 and dad, they're going to leave. Now we're going 9 to -- they'll need caretakers. There will be how 10 much control over that building at that point. 1~ , THE COURT: I understand your point. 12 MRS. POPE: I don't think I have anything else 13 to say. ('n;,,", ~J 1.4 THE COURT: Mr. Santos, did you have any 15 questions you wanted to ask Mrs. pope? 16 MRS. SANTOS: I have. THE COURT: All right, Mrs. Santos. You want to say something? MRS. SANTOS: I have -- THE COURT: Let's wait. We'll get to that a a 17 18 19 20 21 minute. Do you have any questions of Mrs. Pope? 22 MR. SANTOS: I do have questions as far 23 THE COURT: Not argument but questions. 24 MR. SANTOS: In response to, what they claim as , ~ 25 having police cars and ambulance there -- o & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 n' . '!' '. JI,I""\. \~l:...i v ,. ,. ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 38 1 THE COURT: That's not a question. What's the 2 question? Is there a question you want to ask her? 3 MR. SANTOS: No, no. 4 THE COURT: Because if you want to tell me an 5 explanation for that, then you can do that when you 6 go back on the stand, and I'll put you under oath 7 again, but do you have any questions? 8 MR. SANTOS: No, sir. 9 THE COURT: Do you, Mrs. Dougall-Sides? 10 MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: Just briefly. 11 1.2 CROSS-EXAMINATION 13 BY MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: 1.4 Q. Mrs. Pope, you had mentioned an incident with 15 a man trying to knock your door down? 17 16 A. Uh-huh. Q. Could you briefly describe that. 18 Well, I was in the house one day, and I heard A. 19 an awful banging on the door, and I have a little 20 peephole, so I don't open the door. I looked in the 21 peephole, and there was a big, tall fella. His face was 22 all screwed up. He was very angry. He was not only 23 banging on my door, he was kicking it with the bottom of 24 his feet. 25 So I just stood there very quietly and finally D & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 " , 1 (J 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 (~) '.'101... 21 22 ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 39 he left, and I thought that was the end of it. I went back and got my ironing out and it started again. This time it was really bad, pictures slid down the wall. I went and 1 got Don, he was out in the garage, and I said, There's someone beating on the door, I think he's from next door. Don came to the door, threw open the door, and he read him the riot act. He just pointed and really just told him off. Then I got to thinking about it, and 10 I called the police because I thought, well, I better 11 document it because no one would believe me. 12 I called the police and the police carne. He 13 was very nice. He went next door, and then he came 14 back, and he said to me. that will never happen again. 15 He said,. I've taken care of the matter, and they've 16 assured me that it will never happen again. 17 Was it your impression that the person banging Q. 18 on your door was from 19 He was from there, yes. Afterwards I saw him A. 20 in the yard. The same fella Q. Was that in the Santos yard? A. Yes, he was in Mrs. Santos' yard. This is the 23 same fella that used to come to my -- stand by the fence 24 and just watch me. This is also the fella that I .~ 25 complained about in the front bedroom -- in the back ~j..III" ~,.,,":',,'...:. ./....I.:~:..'. D & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 ,I J ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 40 1 bedroom so that we couldn't sit in our yard. He's gone G 2 now. I think he went the day before the 4th, February 4 3 or around that area. 4 THE COURT: Have you ever been. in the Santos 5 home? 6 THE WITNESS: No. I told you because of the 7 last experience we had, which was people coming 8 into our garage crying and screaming and rescuing 9 the guy that kept on wondering through the yard 1.0 because he had Alzheimer's, and quite a few 11 incidents like that. We had decided to adopt a 12 kind of wait and see. 13 The house was empty for I think two years, and (OJ' ( \ ";~,':';.'lt1 14 Don and I mowed the grass and tried to keep it up 15 so it didn't look too bad. Then when they moved in 16 and there was a flurry of activity, we didn't know 17 what was going on, so we adopted a wait and see, 18 just leave it alone to see what would happen. And 19 then we started seeing all these people. 20 THE COURT: Aside from the fella banging on 21 the door, have you ever had anybody else from the 22 facility'come onto your property? 23 THE WITNESS: No, stand by the fence. 24 THE COURT: Just stand by the fence?, u 25 THE WITNESS: Yeah. D & 0 REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 ~~,,~:~~;...~~.t"~li.n...,'1 ..-....."w..,.~..:~~... ,n 1.... .:~ . I'" .\ C ~ ' ,t., ~ '$" ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 41 1 THE COURT: The lady who accosted you I should o 2 say? 3 THE WITNESS: She swore at me. 4 THE COURT: Was she on the other side of the 5 fence? 6 THE WITNESS: The other side of the fence, 7 right leaning on the fence, yeah. So she was maybe 8 six feet away from me if I were in the flower bed, 9 or 5 feet away. 10 THE COURT: How many times has that happened 11 where people have said something to you over the 12 fence or have -- 13 THE WITNESS: Well, the fella, I couldn't o 14 understand what he was saying, twice -- 15 THE COURT: To be honest with you, Mrs. Pope, 16 what I'm trying to find out is get a flavor of 17 whether it's an ongoing thing, does it happen f. ~ ~ , 18 weekly, does it happen monthly? 19 THE WITNESS: Twice 1 would say. 20 THE COURT: Over how long a period of time? 21 THE WITNESS: It seemed all at once. About 22 four months ago. 23 THE COURT: How long has the place been in 24 operation? ,""'"\ ~ 25 THE WITNESS: I have no idea. D & 0 REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 1 ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING . . ~. I.. ".. 42 THE COURT: When's the last experience you had ,0 2 with an unpleasant situation? 3 THE WITNESS: I think it was that girl, which 4 would have been before February the 4th, because I 5 know she was gone then. 6 THE COURT: Is there anything else you want to 7 add? " ). 8 THE WITNESS: I can't think of anything. 12 DON A L 0 POP E 9 THE COURT: Mr. Pope, do you have anything you 10 want to say? If you do, I need to put you under 11 oath. 13 WAS CALLED AND AFTER BEING DULY SWORN WAS EXAMINED AND c:> 14 TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS: 15 THE COURT: Your full name? 16 MR. POPE: Donald C. Pope. 17 THE COURT: Also the same residence, 18 Clearwater? 19 MR. POPE: Yes. 20 THE COURT: All right. What is it you want to 21 say? 22 MR. POPE: People may be wondering why I don't 23 say anything. I have a short fuse and I know it. 24 That's basically -- I spent a lot of time in the ~ 25 south Pacific, and I'm prejudice. I'm not afraid D & 0 REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 :'/":i~,):.':.>.. ::':[~ ...'; ';::;.: ;" .. '}',:;':)\'. '.: "'::-:/ ;',<'\:{: ;"::.: \,:; .'/. ,. ::" :;:,.:!:;::,::.: ... .C.; u:.>.. .">;'(: ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 43 1 to say it, and I will not -- anything that's going o 2 on here I just wanted to make a statement, I've got 3 a short fuse and that's the reason I'm not talking. 4 THE COURT: Anything else, any questions of 5 Mr. Pope? 6 MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: No, sir. 7 THE COURT: Mr. Santos, I believe you said you 8 had something you wanted to add in rebuttal. 9 MR. SANTOS: Actually, now it becomes a 10 . question to Mrs. Pope, if I may ask her a question. , 11. THE COURT: Sure, go ahead. 12 MR. SANTOS: I was just wonde=ing if the 13 Honkas gave us the courtesy or whenever a 4IK!<~ ~.;:a\~: l1:..~~. 14 disturbance was created by one of our residents, 15 how come that we weren't paid the courtesy to be 16 told to us personally of the disturbance that the 17 one resident made to them. 18 THE COURT: I think that's something YOU'd 19 ,have to ask the Honkas because I don't think Mrs. 20 Pope can tell you why the Honkas chose to tell her 21 and not you. 22 MRS. POPE: Can I say it? 23 THE COURT: I guess. 24 MRS. POPE: Mr. Honka said he did tell you .~ 25 when they shut the electricity off, that he did D & 0 REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 ... '. ~",",; I. ..' 'r I'" ~'" \ '.' I"', ", 1'" . '\ .. 'I' ~ ~) . l. . '~J\r~ (;) ~\'~~~,~",,~~'.. of' ..~'< . ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 44 1 tell you, Oscar. 2 MR. SANTOS: I wasn't talking about the 3 electricity, ma'am. I'm talking about the incident 4 that happened -- 5 MRS. POPE: Oh, with the boy. 6 MR. SANTOS: with the boy -- 7 MRS. POPE: The boy when he knocked on the 8 door. 9 MR. SANTOS: Yes. 10 MRS. POPE: And he told the young girl, I 11 don't even know her name, that he was told that if 12 nobody was home at your house, that they were to 13 come next door and wait, which is what the 14 policeman was told when that guy knocked on my , 15 door. There was nobody home, and he came to our 16 house because he had no place to go. 17 I guess my question is I think MR. SANTOS: 18 what should be required these days, if you want to 19 keep a very good, friendly neighborhood, that I 20 think you would come to me and say something about 21 it rather than just I don't think the police is 22 always the solution on matters like that. I think 23 we're civilized enough where we can talk things -- 24 MRS. POPE: We're not dealing with neighbors 25 here. We're dealing with people that we are afraid o & 0 REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 . '.....;.,,, ,~ .. n 10 ~~ \,. ~ :~# 'i 20 22 Q ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 45 1 of. 2 MR. SANTOS: I'm talking about addressing it 3 to us as the operators of the facility. 4 THE COURT: Well, to be perfectly honest with 5 you, Mr. Santos, whether she came to you or she 6 came to somebody else, that doesn't have anything 7 to do with what the issue is here. That's '8 something that you as neighbors have to work out. 9 Does either side, anyone, have anything further that's relevant to the issue I have to 1.1 consider regarding the issue of the award of the 1.2 conditional use permit for the two additional beds? 1.3 MRS. POPE: Can I say one more thing? I know 1.4 I'm long-winded and I don't mean to be. I often 15 question when they put the bedrooms in the garage, 16 I called the fire department years ago and asked 17 them if they would go over and check and make sure 18 that the old people could get out. 19 At that time I was volunteering with senior citizens because I was taking -- or actually a 21 nursing home because I was taking care of the elderly people behind us who had put themselves in 23 the nursing home. And I asked the fireman to come 24 down and check it, and he said, Well, he couldn't 25 do that. It wasn't his jurisdiction until he got D & 0 REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 ~' " ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 46 1 notification or something. ~ 2 I said to him, Fine, when the place burns down 3 and people burn to death, I'll see that everybody 4 here knows what's your name is. He came down that 5 day and checked it out, and he said he felt that 6 they could get out of there safely. That was with 7 six' people. They cut one bedroom in half and put a 8 bedroom in the garage. , , 9 Now, they want to put eight people in there 10 which necessitates, what, having how many people to 11 watch over them at night. How many people are 12 going to be sleeping in there ~t night, and are 13 they going to be able to get out of there. That ~~ ~ 14 worries me, that's a really bona fide question. 15 THE COURT: Anything else? 16 MR. SANTOS: No. 17 THE COURT: I'm not going to give you an 18 answer today, in any event, so if you want to 19 MR. SANTOS: Well, this is my last statement. 20 And again, I do not appreciate being threatened. I 21 think the last statement of Mr. Pope saying that he 22 admitted being prejudice, I think that sums it all 23 up, that this is just from the beginning was not 24 anything business related. It has become personal ~ 25 on this level. D & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 "; " .. . ,." '" . ' ':. "" . , . "', ,t '1 " "j '., ." . ", " ' o o 1 . o , . : I" . r: . ,~' "':' '. . '.' ~. I.: . . I .::. ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 47 1 2 THE COURT: Ma'am, do you have anything to add? 3 MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: Nothing further from the city. We would appreciate the opportunity to file 4 5 6 7 a recommended final order. THE COURT: Are you going to order a transcript? MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: Yes, sir. 8 9 THE COURT: I have 30 days -- how long do you think it will take you to do the transcript? THE COURT REPORTER: Our usual turnaround 10 1.1. 12 would be eight to ten business days. 1.3 14 THE COURT: You understand everybody agrees that I did not solicit the transcript, is that 15 correct? 16 MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: Yes. 17 THE COURT: So you won't be saying he's trying 18 to charge us more money. I did not ask for the 19 transcript. You offered. 20 MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: The city will be ordering 21 the transcript. 22 THE COURT: Well, that's what I'm talking about. I have 30 days from the day I receive my copy of the transcript, which Madam Court Reporter said will be between eight to ten business days, 23 24 25 D & 0 REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 ~ :, ~, ~ ~ " , ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 48 1 for me to submit my order back to the City, at 2 which time a copy will go to you as well. 3 MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: Our code -- 4 THE COURT: The code says something else. 5 MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: We have a special 6 provision. 7 MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: That allows you 45 days 8 from today. "9 THE COURT: That's going to be about the same 10 thing. Some hearing officers, they just have 11 allowed the parties 30 days from the date of the 12 hearing. You want 30 days? I'm not going to give 13 you that long. What I'm going to do is say 1.4 this. 'I'll give you 20 days of the 45, and that's 15 also to you, Mr. Santos and Mr. Santos. If you 1.6 have anything you want to submit to me in writing, 17 do it within 20 days of today. But anything that 18 you send to me, be sure you send a copy to Miss 19 Dougall-sides, and, Mrs. Dougall-Sides, anything 20 you send to me, be sure at the same time you send a 21 copy to Mr. Santos. 22 And as for you folks, Mr. and Mrs. pope, I 23 would imagine that at any time after they get the 24 -- the city gets the recommended order, I'm sure 25 you can get a copy of it, if you want it, from D & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 " , . ~:~r:~~} '. : ..!;~ . ': I L. .,'J r'~.'<~.. ,~.:,.~L ',..':~",'~'. '." .J ' I ' , ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 49 " 1. them. Since you're not a party, I have .no o 2 authority to issue them, but they're a public 3 record so you can pick them up at the City I '" ~~ . , <c' ...~ .' ,f 4 would think, is that not correct? c..":.., or.' . 5 MS. DOUGALL-SIDES: Yes, sir. ; , 6 THE COURT: If there's nothing further then, " r; 7 .~ appreciate it and the hearing is adjourned. .: ~ 'I." '. 8 (At this time the hearing r. II"" l,.. 9 in the above-captioned matter ;;".',".. 1-1"" :~: 10 was concluded at 10:20 a.m.) , ' f 11. " ; 12 "0 13 14 15 :', " 16 , . 0" . 17 , , " 18 " "I" 19 '. .: . " ~:~ . . .'~ r I;. I, :,' , . 20 , , 21 . >' ~ C 22 " . .. 23 I . .. ': , . ""0"'""" ',.'" , :. ,) , 24 25 I' . ~L' ~ o & 0 REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 "< c . . .' . b 1.' ,. f. ",. 'I'd"'<~:' :'., , '.. l . Y . : .," ~ I.......: o , ' " <0' ADMINISTRATIVE HEARING 50 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 2 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 3 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 4 I, DENISE ANN HERROLD, Court Reporter, 5 certify that I was authorized to and did 6 stenographically report the foregoing deposition; and 7 that the transcript is a true record of the testimony 8 given by the witness. 9 I further certify that I am not a relative" 10 employee, attorney, or counsel of any of the parties, 11 nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 12 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I ('-) ,.. 't' ..YU.J;..'" 14 15 16 17 1.8 19 20 21 22 23 24 o 25 \' 13 financially interested in the action. Dated this 2nd DAY OF MAY, D & D REPORTING SERVICE, INC. (813) 468-2002 . . ': ' < . '.; .. \ '. ; ~. . , . .. I I. '.; .; I. .:., '.. I ..':.