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06/16/1993 (2) . ,.' . /.' . '. I " '. , , ~ /~-: c:." . . ; ~ " . ;1''". " " " " " ' , ! , , c " I " . .~ c ~...: . ", '. '. . ., '.' , , , '-"'-~-\' ., , , , , . ~ . I /.' ' ., . .... . ,".' , , " , ,". :....: " \'. .:. ~;. ~..~.~';Jt . ' , , ' I~ c.:, ~~, / WORKSESSION City Commission Worksession Minutes ...... () Date JOIn t Se.~Sion w,'t/, ti 01 S4!e H4YbIiY -1- :2 3 (.) , .' , ." , '- . . .'. j . ' . . .' ~'-', . . I ~ "'.... ~ "11'. c 'I o CITY COMMISSION SPECIAL WORK SESSION JOINT SESSION WITH THE CITY OF SAFETY HARBOR June 16, 1993 The City Commission of the City of Clearwater met at the Long Center with the following members present: Rita Garvey Arthur X. Deegan, II Richard Fitzgerald Sue A. Berfield Fred A. Thomas Mayor ICommissioner Vice-Mayor ICommissioner Commissioner Commissioner Commissioner City of Safety Harbor Commission: Kent Runnels ' Daniel pohto Kathleen Bamburg Linda Adkins Pam Corbino Mayor Commissioner (arrived at 6:20 p.m.) Commissioner (arrived at 6:37 p.m.) Commissioner Commissioner Also present: ..;,.il.... (' ) .'>ed' Pam Brangaccio Michael J. Wright Cynthia E. Goudeau Safety Harbor City Manager Clearwater City Manager Clearwater City Clerk The meeting was called to order at 6:09 p.m. for the purpose of discussing the Long Center. Mayor Garvey introduced Clearwater officials. Long Center Executive Director Mark Abdo introduced the Long Center Board of Directors and the Center Foundation members. Mayor Runnels introduced Safety Harbor officials. Mr. Abdo reviewed the current Long Center operations stating it is a unique facility due to the partnership that exists. He indicated the Center was constructed debt free and 80% of the $1 5-million was donated by private organizations and individuals. Seventy percent of the operating costs are contributed by private individuals. He said the growth in the Center's usage has been dramatic. He said over 2-million participants have utilized the facility since it opened not including spectators or visitors to the property. Mr. Abdo stated the Center is larger than a community center and has become a tourist attraction. He said 1,500 hotel rooms were booked in conjunction with special events at the Center. He reported the US Olympic team is using the Center as a training site and the World Youth Basketball Tournament has chosen the Center as a host facility. Mayor Runnels indicated there was no question regarding the beauty, value and uniqueness of the Center, however, financial concerns exist. The major concerns pertain '--' mwssp06b.93 1 06/16/93 . . . ,I. I ... . .. . ~ to questions regarding how to charge the participating agencies either with a formula computing hours of usage or using population size. He said the operation of the recreation facility has experienced a shortfall each year. At first, the endowment was based on population. The shortfall now is split among the user agencies based on user hours. He expressed concern that when one community cuts back on its usage, percentage costs increase for the other agencies. The hope is to base the charge on population. In response to a question from Mayor Garvey, Mayor Runnels indicated Safety Harbor wishes to increase its usage of the facility but expressed concern regarding the disincentive because that would increase Safety Harbor's costs. Mr. Abdo said the original agreement between the agencies was based on population size to allow each agency to meet the needs of each community. He distributed budget projections and a long range plan through 2000. He said the Center Foundation's purpose is to raise funds but they have been unable to offset the residual and still meet their established goals. Commissioner Pohto questioned Clearwater's feelings regarding using population size as the basis for assessments. l~-) ...~. Commissioner Berfield questioned how the 85% charge for Clearwater was calculated. Mr. Abdo said it was based on the University of South Florida's census tracking. He stated the agencies would have to agree regarding the official source for population figures. He also reported Clearwater for Youth, which represent 1 % of the population, wants to pay something. Commissioner Berfield questioned how Clearwater usages compare with Safety Harbor's. Mr. Abdo indicated over 70% of the usage comes from Clearwater. Commissioner Berfield questioned if usage was based on programs or residents. Mr. Abdo said the figures were based on memberships. Ream Wilson, Clearwater Parks & Recreation Director, agreed and indicated his staff has estimated 75% of the participants are Clearwater residents. It was indicated Clearwater's population is 100,000 while Safety Harbor's is 15,000. Mr. Wilson said these figures indicate Clearwater has 85% of the population with access to the Center. It was stated that due to the agreed reciprocity, not all residents are tracked. The 75% figure is just an estimate. Commissioner Thomas questioned what percentage of participants were residents of Safety Harbor. Mr. Abdo indicated 10% live in Safety Harbor. Commissioner Thomas questioned from where the remaining 15% came. Mr. Wilson felt those participants live in unincorporated Pinellas County. Commissioner Thomas questioned if the County has been asked to support the Center. It was indicated they have. Mayor Runnels noted participants who are not residents of Clearwater or Safety Harbor pay a higher membership rate. He said the endowment supports Clearwater and Safety Harbor users. Mr. Abdo said he did not want to be locked into counting memberships as many class participants are not members. Commissioner Adkins questioned how population is related to usage. Mr. Abdo said when population 'figures are used, people do not worry about user hours as their contribution is based on the population size. '''-J mwssp06b.93 2 06/1 6/93 r/ '.<,' t~ < I Ouestions were raised regarding memberships and their distribution among participating agencies. Mr. Wilson said a study done regarding playground uses indicated 75% of the participants are from Clearwater. Commissioner Deegan said he could support basing the fee on usage. He considered the Foundation as a sponsoring agency and felt they could fund a percentage of the residual. Mr. Abdo indicated the Foundation is not a user agency but a contributing one. Commissioner Deegan said he did not discredit the Foundation's activities but noted as their purpose is to reduce the residual, their contribution should be increased. Mr. Abdo reported the Foundation has contributed more than $140,000. Mayor Garvey indicated she was for population because the cities are now cutting back on their usage of the facility and that is not accomplishing what is wanted. Mr. Wright said to balance the budget, he is reducing programming at the Long Center. He said it would be best to remove the disincentive to programming and the agencies should be trying to fill the building. Mayor Runnels agreed the residual would decline if more programming was instituted. Pam Brangaccio said this is her first budget and noted the Commission had added a position to the long Center. She said a $20,000 increase last year was due to the increase in programming at the facility. Mr. Abdo reiterated that using the population based formula would remove that burden. He said basing agency contributions on population size would be simple and clean cut. ,.r..~> \' '-' Commissioner Fitzgerald questioned what Clearwater's cost would be if contributions were based on the population based formula. Mr. Wilson estimated Clearwater's cost would increase $27,000 to $28,000. Commissioner Fitzgerald questioned if additional funds would be returned to Clearwater jf a population based formula is used but additional programming is established. Mr. Wilson indicated this would bQ the case. Commissioner Fitzgerald questioned if a population based formula was used, would personnel be added to operate the Center. Mr. Wilson indicated additional City personnel would not be added as instructors would be contracted. Michael Wright noted if the cost base remains where it is, programming will be decreased. If a population based formula is used, the cost is known up front and the agencies will fight for time. Mayor Runnels agreed this is a $14-million project and if it is "going gangbusters,u per person costs will decrease. Mr. Wilson indicated the Center's operating budget is $800,000 of which Clearwater pays $260,000, or 20% of the budget and residents have access to all of the programs. He said he would like to see people register for programs no matter who is conducting them. Mr. Abdo distributed information from Fred Fischer that compared visitation to usage hours, indicating a 2: 1 ratio. He said the facility is quite efficient. Commissioner Thomas expressed concern regarding everyone playing with numbers and not comparing trapples to apples." He noted Safety Harbor is a smaller city that feels they are paying too much. He stated the Foundation has no incentive to perform. The initial funding was supposed to be $3~million but the endowment did not follow through, causing problems. He suggested Safety Harbor and Clearwater should deal with the '~ mwssp06b.93 3 06/16/93 , ' '. . ~.' . . l'.. . . . ~ . .'" ~ . ' . ~ Center based on the population based formula. He said the picture is bigger than Safety Harbor and Clearwater and felt the Foundation is the bigger player. Commissioner pohto said if the Foundation drain!-'l their principal, they will never get ahead and eventually, all will pay more. Commissioner Thomas recommended the Foundation pursue more aggressive fund raising. Mr. Wright said the cities agreed in the Long Center contract to participate, subject to annual appropriation. He said if the cities say they will not pay more than a certain amount, the additional expense will fall to the Foundation. Mayor Runnels agreed with Commissioner Thomas that the Foundation has no incentive to perform. He felt the situation should be made fair for Safety Harbor and Clearwater and the Foundation's "feet should be held to the fire." He said the more the Center is used, the better it is for everyone. Commissioner Thomas reiterated he did not disagree with the population based formula. (~~~) Mr. Bushard, representing the Foundation, said his organization has an incentive to perform. He said the Foundation has hired professionals and fund raising has improved. He stated if the Foundation does not appropriate funds to the endowment, they will not get ahead. Mayor Runnels and Commissioner Thomas felt it was important that this subject come before them each year and that they send a message of fiscal frugality. Commissioner Thomas pointed out that 1 5 % of the users do not live in Clearwater or Safety Harbor and suggested persuading the County to participate. Mr. Wright noted the Long Center charges a non-resident fee for those who live outside the participating agencies. Commissioner Thomas said the cities are at a point where they have to clearly state the maximum they will pay and depend on the Foundation to make up the difference. He said the incentive is to fill the Center. Mayor Garvey questioned if Commissioner Thomas approved of the population based formula. He said he did with limitations. Commissioner Adkins expressed concern regarding the Center's promise to address the needs of the segment of the community that cannot afford to participate. She also noted that residents are not advantaged by sponsoring agencies providing funds up front. She felt the Center's obligation was to meet the need and to make the Center fiscally feasible for all. She recalled promises that this would not be a Yuppie health club. Mr. Abdo said the Center is addressing transportation problems. He noted the agencies decide the fees they charge for their programs. He said the scholarship program affords some participants with free memberships. Commissioner Adkins did not think the scholarship program adequately addressed the needs. Commissioner Pahto felt the meeting was losing focus and consensus was needed to base the fee on population or participation and a need for the Foundation to assist in this matter. Mayor Runnels felt it was important to provide the facility to as many residents as they can and said residents of both cities currently are being hurt. He said the recreation facilities need to be used. Commissioner Bamburg questioned if the Center planned to approach the County for funds or increase fees. Commissioner Pohto indicated all of the above issues were to be addressed. 'J mwssp06b.93 4 06/1 6193 ,. " , . I . .... . , . . ", ' . '. . ~, - ~ David Stone, representing the Center Foundation, indicated if Mr. Fischer had failed, it was failure to persuade the County to participate. He said he approached Largo and Dunedin regarding participation but was not successful. Mayor Runnels recommended approaching the other agencies again now that the Center is open. Commissioner Deegan questioned what would happen if anticipated funds are not generated during Fiscal Year 1993/94. Mr. Abdo indicated the Center would have to go to the Foundation for a contribution or cut back on facility services. In response to a question, Mr. Abdo indicated this was not done in the past years but they did end in the red and did not get an offset from the Foundation. Commissioner Deegan expressed concern the proposed increase in membership was too ambitious. Mr. Abdo agreed the goal is ambitious but he felt it was achievable. Commissioner Thomas said Safety Harbor and Clearwater are the parents of this operation and responsible for shortfalls. He said the City Manager has the right idea and agreed a proper contribution cap needs to be established. Ms. Brangaccio noted Mr. Abdo had anticipated receiving greater financial support from the Foundation. Mr. Wright indicated the cities have representatives on the Long Center boards. Mr. Bushard felt they were losing the lIforest in the trees" and the agencies are gotting a lIgood bang for the buck" from the facility. Commissioner Thomas said he is not losing site of that and indicated it is a good operation and wonderful for the community. He expressed concern regarding the cities' responsibility to the taxpayers. He said a line must be 'drawn somewhere. r" "~ Mayor Runnels said the population based formula was fair but felt the Foundation "'~"': should increase its contribution. Mayor Garvey agreed the population based formula makes sense. Commissioner Thomas said he did not understand revisiting this matter every year and questioned if it was legal to udraw the line." Mr. Wright said funding the Center's operations would be subject to annual appropriations. Commissioner Fitzgerald felt consideration should be given to the population based formula and suggested the city managers draft a plan to divide the charges. Commissioner Deegan felt the City's contribution should be based on users. He noted Safety Harbor could use the facility more than Clearwater. Mr. Abdo said all of the agencies cooperate and are involved with scheduling programming. Commissioner Adkins expressed serious reservations regarding the Long Center and the proposed population based formula. She expressed concerns about being penalized for user hours. She supported the population based formula with the proviso that the Foundation increase their contribution. She felt a cap should be placed on the cities' contributions and suggested the priority was getting more people to the Center. Commissioner Deegan said he did not see what was wrong with the user hour formula. Commissioner Adkins indicated the user hour formula was self defeating. Mayor Runnels questioned what would happen if Safety Harbor walked away from the Center. Commissioner pohto indicated he would support funding as they have in the coming year and recommended taking more time to think this out. He agreed the city managers should develop a plan to alleviate the fees in the following fiscal years. ~ mwssp06b.93 5 06/16/93 ".' " I~ Commissioner Thomas said if something could be worked out, he would be willing to listen but he did not feel this could be accomplished within the next 30 days. Commissioner Pohto again recommended using the user hour formula now and come back in the next four to five months with a proposal. He said he could not support future increases. Mayor Runnels recommended maintaining the status quo for now. Commissioner Adkins questioned if Recreation was working on a program for next year. Mr. Ronald, Safety Harbor Recreation Director, indicated there was a status quo with normal fluctuations in recreation programs. Commissioner Adkins questioned how long it would take to fill the off peak hours. Mr. Ronald said he would work with Mr. Abdo to fill the appropriate slots. He said senior programs are offered in the winter months as well as three month memberships. He said a youth program operates in the summer. Commissioner Pohto questioned if direction could be given not to use the user hour formula after 1994. Commissioner Thomas recommended using the off peak hours for those who cannot afford full priced memberships. Commissioner Berfield questioned the cap Safety Harbor has imposed on its contribution as indicated by the budget. Ms. Brangaccio said when Mr. Abdo sought additional funds, she refused to add his request to the budget. Commissioner Berfield questioned what was in Clearwater's budget. Mr. Wright indicated the figure currently is based on population. Commissioner Barfield questioned if the revenues decrease, who pays the difference. Mr. Abdo indicated the Center Foundation would. i' '~~,~ '..,'t/I!.::"rJ Commissioner Thomas questioned if times of little use should be provided for the indigent. Mr. Wilson indicated it could, but it would require City staffing. He cautioned that care had to be taken to not decrease Center rentals and reduce this revenue source. He said a happy medium needed to be reached. Ms. Brangaccio questioned the Center's staff level and Mayor Runnels Questioned if a position could be eliminated. Mr. Abdo said he would approach the Foundation before agreeing to cut a position. Due to the Center's growth, the loss of a position would hurt the programming. Commissioner Thomas expressed concern regarding weakening the Foundation in the infancy of its fund raising. He noted the costs of the user hour formula and population based formula were similar. Commissioner Adkins said if the population based formula was used, increased programming would result in increased revenue. Mr. Abdo said under the current user hour base, the agency is charged when an additional program is added. Commissioner Bamburg expressed concerns that this wonderful facility was only used by 2 % of the population and that Safety Harbor residents are not using the Long Canter. Discussion ensued regarding usage numbers. Ms. Brangaccio recommended retaining the user hour formula this year and working with the Long Center to develop and come back with a five~year plan. Commissioner Corbino questioned the fund raising efforts. Mr. Bushard said nothing more is currently planned but indicated the Foundation receives a great deal of v mwssp06b.93 6 06/16/93 7'!:~\":'}:':" '. " ,'. .1.... . '~':. I; "'" . }. ' J,.j',> . :'~ l t. ' ~. ': .' ' '. . , . . ., '-c ~/;. ,..... . , ''. > ~, ". ~'~.>~ :;:~~/~ ~ ~"~f: , , " \ :,'111 ~ ) , . ~, ' ...'. " i;I~!7!I~~;::;,lt,I/'::::"/?:'><:: :'::~'::"".':': .,:/:.';,' :::.I.:;";';'~';" . ,:,j',:,. ~> ,:',' , . ,. ~' ""Q " ,', -' .. ' \ 1,-.........) ,">',",;:' , . " . '. ': ~ ..'<, ..' ., ~. " . . :.. . '\~:l ~. '. ,0 ':.J .~: ."~" ":' " . '. , \.' . ',,": :/:'/";,~ 'P>,.: :~::.'~::~;:n<'.:f~~~~ , ; , , deferred giving. Mayor Runnels concluded the agencies should proceed with the status quo. He noted Commissioners Bamburg and Adkins favored the population based method. Commissioner Deegan said he was receptive to Ms. Brangaccio's proposal. Commissioner Corbino said she liked the population based formula but would support Ms. Brangaccio's suggestion~ Mr. Wright recommended using the population based formula with a cap. General agreement was to investigate adopting the population based formula. . , Adiournment The special work session adjourned at 8:20 p.m. (,:t \' mwssp06b.93 06/16/93 7 .', . , ,....