01/31/1961
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JOIN'f l~1F.E'.l'lN(] 20NING Mill PLANNING BOA1(D I\ND
'rUE Cl'l'Y GOI.11~IS~ION
January 31, 1961 - 2:00 P. Mu
!iOrrmS O.F r~~lrD!g,:
Present: Mayor Robert 1..fn \'lea thel"ly
Co~nissionerB: Amos Smith
Herbort R~ Fields
Kel1net,'~ \'lu Halters
City Attorney Herbert M~ Brovm
Mru Arthur 14.. Kruse~ Chaj.rman Zoning and Planning Board
Zoning and Planning .
Board I.lembers: . nea(~e,. Gates, Galloway.l Harries,.
Kennedy, TJIylander, Novotny and S\'lan..
MrG Jack I. Wolle~ City Planner
Press
Mayor Weatherly presided at th1.s \'lork session. Its purpose 1'la3
further discussion of zoning legislation proposals for presentation
to the Pinellas County legislative delegationo
Mayor \'1.:
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UThis ,'rill be tho first of mal1Y meetings to come. I hope
you will be agreeable to setting up schedule of perhaps a
meeting a month because most of oUl"decisions will be
based on your recommendations.. Mr~ Kruse and J.~. S\'ian
were in conference with the Manager and myself on this
zoning legislatiol1. It
HHave all commissioners read the article that was in the
SUll \'lX'itten by Vice-Chairman r l'~1r.. Reade ~ because the pro;;..
cedure outlin.ed in that article is the thj.nki.ng of the
BoaI;d", In 1958 in our recommendation to the CO[IUuission'lle
submitted the Game thingQ Our thinking has LH.H~n the same
before and since that time 6 I think in that article ~~
recommended to the Commission that ,~ delete or repeal that
part of SeeD 79 'l,1hich pertains to zoning matters and re-
pl.1ce it \oJtth State Act... /1176 \.rith perhaps u supp1ement,al
ord.inance in connectiDn wit.h 176 by the Glty Commission"
The point which we have fel tall aJ.ong (and as you will no-
tice in the minutes of our la.'Jt meeting) is that we think
that the present arrangement has got. to be changed; and I
think the Commission 5.s well along thE: :same li.n8 of thought; u
There seems to be some difference of opinion among the
members 0,1" the Conmission as to just. v;hon such aetion
should be taken. ~le are over heX'~ coday b~cause if \'ie
are going to have anything in this session {of the legis-
lature} have to have il; in by the deadline.u
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,;l"y'}.u ~~neot ~:lliL.~'.&:!:..JJd .Jl.!}!L~;1.:.~:'S.l?0~}.1 :.~~.~_.:t~LLll ~~~,:.._E~!r~::.....d 2
lilt WHn t,he COrlncrwus of tho OOmmif,; sion 1;0 eliminate the
booby trnp t In presonting that. to the legislat:Lve body
it. \'ffiS suggestied tha t: tho po orla be g:J.ven a choico as to
whether they wDnt 17b 01" an itemizod l"afGrEmdum, "
uUur first thought in t.ho matter 1s the repeal. Our aecond
thought In that time is of the essence.. Alternative of the
thing 13 to submit both phases to the PQople and let them
decide. \Ve aro almost unique here and around the state.
in t,his type' of zoning referendunl. . night off the bat I
don't know of any place in t.he state that uses the same
procedura. Our second alternativo is along the line that
you have just stated - to go to the people"............
uiJIy line of t.hinking is to gtve the people cho:i.ce of both
ways but think '\'le can s tart along t.he line. of' an education-
al program for the people in the meantime.. TT He stated it
"/as also the consensus of' the Conlilission that if you at-
tempt to take the referendum away from the people abruptly
the proposal would meet. ,'lith much opposition.
City Att.orney Brown joined the meeting at this time. He outlined
a suggested change to his draft.of amenwaent to sub-paragraph g, Seeo
. 79, copy. of which draf't he explained W,J8 previoaly submit.ted to lJIr a
\'lolle a Change cons;l.sted of the addition of the words tron each .
question submittedll before the words, "at a general or special elec-
ti on ~ et C a H .
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Kru~e :
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Smith. :
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CiA BroWIl;:
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Reade:
C/ A. Bro\'!n:
asked if it says .anything about the percentage of voters
. \'Jho go to the poles?
read the portion of the amendment pertaining to this
question 0
expressed the op~n~on that in some years you would have
lh or more items in a referendum and that he did not be..
lieve all voters \Ifill vote on all items, and that perhaps
on some items none will vote. npersonally I hope very
much that the freeholders will choose to go along with
Chapter 176 of the Fla 0 Statutes. II
"Do I understand correctly that you~:" recommendation has al-
ways been to have 176 voted on by the people" Has the
Commission agreed on that? . Has the Conunissj.on agreed to
pro posing legislat :i.on to haye t.he pl)ople vote on oue of the
two? I am golng to draw Hhatever tlw Commission \'.ant:~"
So far ha ve Ol{.~.y bl~E)n told to dr:-,Hi this ~ . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . .
~iha t is your suggestio n about se t.l~ing it up on the baJ.lot '?tl
'fhere ",as a discuss ion of th is point. It l'iL1S g03nerally agree d
tha t the pr oposala W) uld have to be defined in 50ine way on tho ballot '.
Conuniss ioner Halters asked \'lhet.her a vo te for one or the ot he r o.f the
,choices \'iould be an automatic repeal of' tb.e pres'ent system. l:il". Kr'use
suggested that the choices might be set out as~
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1.. to substitute 176 for repealt}u paragraph
2. to amend Sec. 79 to eliminate the package deal..
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Hoade:
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It\lant to point out~ tho Ih1.U,j,nf~ ,iob ilnn tho difficulty of it."
Hln t;ho noxt olo(:tion w} eould :..ntbmit. t~h0 ropeal of' the
last pnra~~ruph and the nubstj,t.ution of 176 Hnd in thf~ next
election submit this al/jern.ati.vo,"
UThink He nhould tlJ.ke this f.irst stop and vote on itemized.
lis t and t \oJO 1'0 farend urns a Y8 al' . I um not. aga ins t go ing
all at one' time.. I am just afraid the voters may say. "110"
to this......... .and then .~le hQuld be back where we started
iI'om. . . . . . . . .
1f1J1ay I offer a suggestion. Can we submit it to the vot,ers
in this fashion:
The question bei'ore tho voters is the amendment. oi~ Chapter
790
Question 1:
Question 2:
Question 3:
\iould have. to' vote
No change
Abolish entirely .
Change in the fashion
lJlr . Bro'\'Jll
:for one. If
as suggested by
"l-light not ge t/ a maj ol'ity with t,hree choices. n
If! thinl< it is quite apparent that the people do \rlant a
change~tt
QLA Brown-l suggested:
j'!ayor W.1
. Vote for one:
Ques. #1: Do you favor amendn~nt to Sec. 79
which does away with package deal
and sets up item by i.tem deal?
Ques.#2: Do you favor the repeal of the last
paragraph of sub-section g and the
adoption o~ 176 Fla~Statutes as
your zoning law?
expressed the view that any educational publicity program
. regarding the referendum vote . 'should be built around the
two \'loI'ds !lmendmont or r.6pea~. lilr. Kruse stated the Board
could carry out an educational program for the publi~
"lith the COlllllissioll1 s cooperation and invited any or all of
the COnlllltssioners to mee t \'Ti f~h the Board at any time ~
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'.1'here 'Has a c1is cuss ion of time the rei'el"endum ~hould be held. !4r 0
Kruse t 5 i'eeling \vas that it should be held at a non..political time"
City Attorney Brown stated. it VlaS the c Olwen6US of' the CI.1Jniniss ion that.
they would like to have it as Boon a.fter tho leginlature meet.s as possi-
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I1Are wa 1tlithin our legal r'ights not. b:, G'LYG t.hcm th\?o ehoie{:)
,to re.t&.in the present sY3tem'?lt
Both City At. torney Broun and !Ju.'.. l,1ylunucH' 1'131 t thai~ ful"-
ther study should be made Goncol"ning i~hi:=J If~g<J.l point"
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.Q.Q.nl~ ...?!1!i.th: "V/ould th is po J~m:\.t, hUl'dsh'lp docisions by t.tm Bourd o.i'
,Ad;jlHlt,mtlnt llnd J\pprwl'{ HOlllll 11k(;l to nen hardship Hnd
pt-)rmiss1,vc usoD cut, down. II
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Kruse:
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!~~r~ \Jo110 ~Jxplainod tha1~ t.;he BAA excercized it~s pO'flSra
at the present. t:1.ma undol:' t.he authority of portions of'
Chapter 176 J and pointed ('~)t that f.l chunge to a sys tem
\'/hereby peoplo could Z'i:l('l(d,vr-~ mora irnmedia1~e COllsideratJ.on
of zoning change app1icat. ions by Commies ion action \'lould
probably decrease the number of cases submit.ted to t,he BAA..
.........111 personally (only expressing my own opinion) "lOuld
like to see the first move to vote on items individually"
" .. . . . . . IT Ooe s 176 take some pow(;)r u'vmy from the C it y Com-
mission?"
J..lr. \Volle explained that the COl'nmission could adopt by
ordinance part2 of Chapter 176 and would not have to
adopt all of the Chapter and that the pO\'lars granted by
Chapter 176 were supplemental and cumulati va ~
brought up some specific instances of zoning change requests
that might be received and was advised by i"rr. \[olle hO,"1
such cases ,""auld. be processed. under the provtsions of
.Chapter 176. It vias pointed out that. ca.ses involving setno
back variances \'lould still re quire the approval of' the BAA.
Irr "lOuld go along with the Board's recommendation.1I
"I still favor this idea to give people the choice of both
the amendment and the repeal. One \dll be a drastic change.
Other \'lill be a mild change in the right direction. II
If If the Commission feels, t.hat they should be gi 'I en a choice
of the two I think the Board \'/ill go along with it. . I am
. speaking for myself. II .. . . . .. '.'
IIIf YOll. offer the people two programs ",~th the choice of
voting for one, I think you cut dovm 50~ of the resistance
there G ~Just moving sl.O\-ver in the rlght dire ction Q It
"Hav'E) people in other places that art') under 176 now been
used to the re ferendum be.fore? II
It \-ms explained that.. m~.micipalj_ties ciperati,ng under the
176 now did not nece::wurily have tihe r'efer-endum system be-
fore the enactmen t of thi[~ Ch:l pter .1.n 1939, as many o.f those
{that had zoning 1D\-/3) prior to l;h[~ t tima probably based
their lavlS on some specj.al act of the lcg:i.slatlu'n..
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"Do you thinli:. you vwuld, have IllOl"'e tj.l1a.n 16 zoning cases a
year? Think \'/(-;) ha vc a pre t.ty good zoning map and think
the Zoning and Pla.nning Board ,,,ill ag~rl1e. 1'i\E!; 'lIon' t have tno
many applications under Hither' SY:::1 t.ern 0"
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i.1ayor~ vi..:
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"On the recommendation of iJ}r. Loeff'ler that night and
further discussion .feel that both plans should be o.ffered~n
JoInt I4t)o ting V't.P Bet [lnd CJ.ty COllll1l1n :Jl~)n -1/31/61 ~ Page //5
(In response to an inquiry by a Board member, he cJ.arified
this statement. to the ei':~oct tha.t. this 'would not apply to
an individual expression of opinion)
"He are only advisory and any program of education for the
public should be in line ,ri eh the COCl1Jlliss ion's fee lings. I
do think it is very necessary that we embark on a .thorough
educational program and I am confident that Itle will have
your support."
"1 am sure that 176 is a more modern system, but I do not
bel i.eve thepeo ple ,,,ill a c ceph it,,".........~.
There Has some discussion of the interpretation of Itd:i.strict
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zoning"~
lInegardlt18S oj,' what thll iO:..1uti hore ls 9 1 think t,he public
aho\",ld. bu educCltod. Zoning Bhould bo par.t; of the overt\ll
picturo."
ltHoward Hartley ''lorles for the cJ.tiy in public relat.iona..
'fhink it would bo apPJ."opr:i.ate for your Board to get ...lith
HO\1Urd Hartle)t and lay out ~t(lur plnn 01' publicit.y, as long
as you pre sent. it fail'ly J not giva t.he impre 53 ion tho. t you
are trying to force one way on thom.1f
tllrhe majority of us on the Board I am sure \';111 go along
vd th the two pro p03als. tt
"All we are asking. is .for the people to be the judge, but
I do not think either t.he Commissioners or the Plarining
Board should go out and say 'we are in favor or ana or the
other.ft
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There lms a disct1ssion of the form of' the J.egislation to be pro-
. posed. i.w; Uol1,e sugcr3st.ed that pal:'haps one bill could be dral'ffi to
include both the amendment-and the repeal proposal~ It was the City
Attorney's opinion that j.t hrould requ.ire two bills ~ one bill to amend
See. 79 according t.o draft already prepared by him and anoth er bi.ll to
repeal 'the final paragraph of See Q '79 and provide fot' adoption by
ordinance of '.portions of Chap{~el" 176. It vms agreed that tvlO bills .
\'/ol.1ld be prepared and tha t l/lr., \10110 '.;ould. adV"is(;'3 \1i th the C'i.ty nttor-
nay as to a. sug~ested \'lordj.ng ()i' thE! second bill. '1'11e Board \'ffiS advised
that the Co.n.'7liss i011 had r.he assuranCB o.f t.he legisluti ve delega tioti.
that they ';/ould consider thC:l:1El proposal~1 f)1len if.' l"Dce:l.ved 1ater t,han.
the deadline pre vi.ouBly' S c.t ~
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The meeting vIas adjoltrnhd :..\t 3: i~5 p, M'J
z&P 2/13/61